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#1 2015-07-09 22:34:03

raoulduke
Member
Registered: 2015-07-02
Posts: 36

Ethernet-LocalTalk Software Bridge

I'm not totally sure which category to file this under.  I was experimenting (mostly on 68kmla which I won't be using anymore) with networking my Power Mac 7100 with my SE (800k model) - which was surprisingly hard.  The verdict on that seems to be that the version of AppleShare Workstation included on Apple's (i.e. from its server) 6.0.8 disk images appears to not work properly - at least in this specific context.  Upgraded to AppleTalk Workstation 3.5, the network is stable.  So the short story being I have a simple LocalTalk network between those two machines.

The 7100 has ethernet which I hook up periodically (and it works fine; that's not the issue).  I want to build a simple software bridge to route internet to the SE (literally just to take a photo; and I've had MacWWW on the SE for a while).  LocalTalk Bridge is installed and configured properly on the 7100, but MacTCP on the SE doesn't seem to be able to connect to the 7100.  MacTCP Ping on the SE confirms that, although IPNet Monitor on the 7100 confirms info is being sent by the SE and received (though not properly) by the 7100.

Also, AppleTalk Internet Router does not run properly on the SE (I have no explanation for that...) - I get an Error 12 on the System after installing the "Macintosh SE" package off of the AIR disks.  [If I'm not mistaken, Error 12 here means that a core process (i.e. AIR probably) isn't running.]  I have tried [these refer to the AIR disk installer options] the SE package, the SE package and the AIR; I have not yet tried the AIR by itself, which I guess is my next shot.  Then there were a couple of other routing programs suggested to me that I haven't tried.

Anyway, I started this topic because I know I will eventually need help.  But preemptively, does AIR (or whichever software being used) need to be installed on both ends?  The only semi-useful tutorial I found suggested yes.

Last edited by raoulduke (2015-07-10 04:24:49)

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#2 2015-07-10 00:22:08

bbraun
Member
Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
Website

Re: Ethernet-LocalTalk Software Bridge

I think some background might be helpful in your quest for a workable solution.

LocalTalk is really SDLC a bus protocol over RS422 (and other serial media).  When you're using AppleShare between your SE and 7100, you're really using the AppleTalk suite of protocols (DDP, etc) over LocalTalk.
EtherTalk is a way of using the AppleTalk protocol suite over Ethernet.
When you're using a LocalTalk Bridge, you're really just bridging AppleTalk from LocalTalk to Ethernet and vice versa.

What you're trying to do, as I understand it, is to get IP networking from the SE, over LocalTalk, to the 7100, and then ideally out to the rest of the world over the 7100's ethernet.
The SE can't do IP directly over LocalTalk, so what it's using is MacIP, or a way to encapsulate IP packets into AppleTalk packet.  Something needs to unwrap the MacIP packets the SE is sending, and place them directly on the Ethernet as IP packets, not as MacIP packets.  In this case, that something would be the 7100.

There are a couple pieces of software out there to do this, the easiest to use is probably ipnetrouter.  You can use it in demo mode, I think, which should at least get you far enough to see if it's all working.  You would install this on the 7100 only.

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#3 2015-07-10 00:32:09

raoulduke
Member
Registered: 2015-07-02
Posts: 36

Re: Ethernet-LocalTalk Software Bridge

I have IPNet Router (I think that's why I accidentally wound up with IPNet Monitor).  But yes - everything you said is spot-on.  However, I haven't actually figured out how to use IPNet Router, but I don't think I've tested it since I got the AppleTalk network working stably.  Thanks.

And as to LocalTalk Bridge - as I read your answer that definitively is irrelevant here, right?  It just bridges networks based on different protocols.  [Sorry my ability to describe this stuff obviously pales in comparison to yours.]  Likewise is AppleTalk Internet Router basically a misnomer (now) in that it just bridges networks (i.e. inter... net)?

[Also worth noting that the SE is in its original config (well... except the HD, but so 1mb of RAM) and it cannot run System 7; and the PM 7100 is running OS 8.6 - although it's got 7.6.1 on another partition that has a weird corruption issue.  But it can only boot to 8.6.  I'll post about that later.]

Last edited by raoulduke (2015-07-10 00:35:09)

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#4 2015-07-10 00:36:27

bbraun
Member
Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
Website

Re: Ethernet-LocalTalk Software Bridge

For the specific goal of IP networking, LocalTalk Bridge is not important here.  ipnetrouter will do the routing of packets from localtalk to ethernet in this case.
I'm not familiar with AppleTalk Internet Router off the top of my head, although I think it is used to route appletalk inter-network, which gets into AppleTalk routing and zones and things you really don't want to get involved in here.

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#5 2015-07-10 03:28:41

raoulduke
Member
Registered: 2015-07-02
Posts: 36

Re: Ethernet-LocalTalk Software Bridge

Okay.  I've configured everything per (http://sustworks.com/site/ipr_guide/localtalk.html) but I 'changed' the ethernet addresses to 192.168.1.x and the AppleTalk addresses to 192.168.0.x.  I get the 7100 receiving pings from the SE, but MacTCP Ping on the SE shows the pings timing out.

(I read one of Uniserver's posts on this but I forget where... where do people generally post pics to link to from here?)

*I think what happened here is that I didn't restart after making these changes, so it was still basically setup normally.  Now after booting back up as an afterthought, I'm not actually connected to ethernet (which is what I'd expect from those settings... are those supposed to be on the other end?  (i.e. on the SE - which can't support IPNetRouter)).

Last edited by raoulduke (2015-07-10 04:25:49)

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#6 2015-07-10 03:59:25

cc333
Member
From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 600

Re: Ethernet-LocalTalk Software Bridge

Just an aside, I'm glad you're here! The Other Place can get kind of snooty at times, in my opinion, so I understand you're desire to leave (especially when you're caught in the middle of a "discussion").

But you came to the right place!

Anyway, I don't have anything useful to offer here, but I will watch with interest.

Carry on...

c

Last edited by cc333 (2015-07-10 04:00:23)


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
Desired: Lisa, Kanga PowerBook G3, Apple IIc, Apple II, Spare parts, etc.

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#7 2015-07-10 04:24:22

raoulduke
Member
Registered: 2015-07-02
Posts: 36

Re: Ethernet-LocalTalk Software Bridge

haha.  thanks.

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#8 2015-07-13 05:19:36

raoulduke
Member
Registered: 2015-07-02
Posts: 36

Re: Ethernet-LocalTalk Software Bridge

I was trying this again just now because I have to put the compacts away at least for a day or two.  I was using the SE/30, though, which I put 7.1 on [in other words, so I have 'newer' TCP/IP capability than with 6.0.8] - I installed NSI 1.4.5 and AppleShare WS 3.5 and Open Transport 1.1.1, also.  I have the Appletalk network working and I can ping my 7100 from the SE/30 using either its Ethernet address (192.168.1.11) or manually-assigned (IPNet Router) MacIP address (192.168.0.1).  However, MacWWW just keeps saying unable to open document, which makes me think the problem is still the bridge.

What I don't understand from that tutorial is what's the deal with "Routes"?  Or... what additionally do I have to do to actually bridge the Ethernet and LocalTalk?

Last edited by raoulduke (2015-07-13 05:23:32)

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