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#1 2015-04-27 03:01:47

LCGuy
Administrator
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-13
Posts: 855

One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

...in my experience, believe it or not..........

*drumroll*

A Windows server!

Yes, I am being 100% serious here. A couple of months back I deployed a Windows 2000 Advanced Server VM on my home server, gave it 200GB of storage and enabled Services for Macintosh. I now have a massive file storage repository for my classic Macs (great thing about Services for Macintosh is that it actually has a way of preserving Macintosh resource forks) that is not only on modern storage media, and backed up weekly (as with the rest of the contents of my server), but that I can connect to not only from my classic Macs, but also from modern OS X Macs, and from PCs. It is seriously awesome being able to download classic Mac stuff on my desktop PC, or my MacBook, connect to the Windows 2000 share, copy the stuffs over, then go over to one of my classic Macs, connect to that same network share via plain AppleTalk (not even AFP, just normal AppleTalk), unstuff the file and work (or play) with it. Windows NT also supports Services for Macintosh, however I've gone with 2000 because its that bit newer. I think Windows Server 2003 also has some form of AppleTalk support.

Obviously, you can use real hardware, if you really want to be period correct you could run it on a P2/P3 based server from back in the day, but given that I live in an apartment its easier for me to virtualise it. (I run Hyper-V, but I imagine you could also use ESXi or VirtualBox depending on your environment)

Anyway, just thought I'd share. smile

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#2 2015-04-27 05:14:57

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

I'd like to do this kind of thing with a hacked Xbox 360. It's even PowerPC. After all, it is running some sort of Windows-based kernel under the hood.

(Aside: I think the 360 is even better than the XB1, despite the older hardware, because the 360 also plays most original Xbox games and the XB1 doesn't play anything from either previous system. Games like Bioshock Infinite still look pretty awesome on the 360 in 1080p, and thanks to its built-in Xbox emulation I've been rediscovering Simpsons Hit and Run and cackling to every wisecrack Homer makes. It's this close to eclipsing the Dreamcast as my favourite console.)


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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#3 2015-04-27 15:53:37

max1zzz
Member
Registered: 2014-05-18
Posts: 207
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

ClassicHasClass wrote:

I'd like to do this kind of thing with a hacked Xbox 360. It's even PowerPC. After all, it is running some sort of Windows-based kernel under the hood.

(Aside: I think the 360 is even better than the XB1, despite the older hardware, because the 360 also plays most original Xbox games and the XB1 doesn't play anything from either previous system. Games like Bioshock Infinite still look pretty awesome on the 360 in 1080p, and thanks to its built-in Xbox emulation I've been rediscovering Simpsons Hit and Run and cackling to every wisecrack Homer makes. It's this close to eclipsing the Dreamcast as my favourite console.)

Now that is a good idea!

I was thinking of using a LC1 as a server for my old mac stuff, then i switched to the idea of using my WGS 6150 as a server, then to a VM... but a 360, i hadn't thought of that!

I have a spare jtaged xeon 360 with no real use for it, I might have a shot at loading linux onto it. (i'll have to see what the latest version of xbox 360 linux is, i know there is a version of debian 6 that runs on it, but last time i looked no one had ported debian 7 to it)

(I have to agree with you that the 360 is better than the XB1, the only thing that is tempting me to get a XB1 is that i am a big fan of the hale series, and halo 5 is going to be a XB1 only release.....)

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#4 2015-04-27 16:34:15

Eudimorphodon
Member
Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 525

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

Or instead of mucking around with an ancient version of Windows you can just use any modern Linux and install NetaTalk on it (AFP networking still works fine as long as you stick with NetaTalk 2.2.x) but, yeah, different strokes for different folks.

The installer for A2SERVER:

http://ivanx.com/a2server/

while specifically aimed at setting up an environment for netbooting an Apple IIgs also works fine for creating a server accessible to old tyme-y Macs. I have an old laptop with Debian+A2SERVER that I use for data transfer to a Mac Plus via an ethernet->localtalk bridge; if I wanted to make it accessible to Windows I could just install SAMBA and share the same directories pointed to by Netatalk.

Notably most multi-platform home NAS devices use a combination of SAMBA and NetaTalk to get the job done. In *some* cases it's still possible to enable classic Ethertalk on them but it's usually an undocumented feature.

Last edited by Eudimorphodon (2015-04-27 16:35:14)


Flap Different.

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#5 2015-04-27 16:55:37

bbraun
Member
Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

This is something I've been struggling with recently.  I was using a Linux server with netatalk2, which is great and has a lot of useful features, including limiting the size of afp shares, like for TM backups so clients don't fight with each other for disk space.
However, I didn't have spectacular experience with Linux and ZFS, and storing data on a filesystem that doesn't ensure integrity of its data is...  like still using a shared address space OS.  smile
I went with Windows 2012R2 and ReFS for my server for a variety of reasons and tradeoffs and it does OK.  Unfortunately, it has little in the way of options for filesharing with older macs.  I've tried setting up a linux VM on the windows server and using netatalk on that to reshare filesystems from the windows host, and it ends up being both slow and fragile.

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#6 2015-04-27 17:49:51

bbraun
Member
Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

Oh right, I remember the other problem with running virtual machines.  VMware doesn't like to bridge traffic to anything other than a simple interface.  They don't like bonded or bridged interfaces.

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#7 2015-04-27 19:26:40

Eudimorphodon
Member
Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 525

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

bbraun wrote:

However, I didn't have spectacular experience with Linux and ZFS, and storing data on a filesystem that doesn't ensure integrity of its data is...  like still using a shared address space OS.  smile

I dunno.... to quote Wikipedia's article on ReFS: "Because ReFS was designed not to fail, if failure does occur, there are no tools provided to repair it."

(In any case the since data integrity features of ZFS and ReFS *really* don't mean a whole lot unless you're talking about running either system on fairly large storage pools with hot redundancy available, etc, I'd say for your average home user a regular offline backup routine is a far better strategy than relying on a magic filesystem to save you when something goes tits up.)  wink

Anyway, the point really was that, yeah, the last versions of Windows that included any AppleTalk support was Windows 2003 which is, to put it nicely, a "vintage" version of a notoriously porous EOL'ed commercial OS. (Well, huh, actually the total End-of-Support isn't until July 14th this year... but close enough.) If you're just looking to slap together a handy-dandy little NAS-style device that covers all the bases in one box Linux (or BSD) certainly can get that done with less fuss-and-muss than trying to assemble something that'll run an ancient version of Windows server. Unless admin-ing a Linux machine is absolutely a no-go in which case, well, go with whatever floats your boat I guess.


Flap Different.

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#8 2015-04-27 21:20:49

bbraun
Member
Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

Well, sorta.  There's no Norton Disk Doctor for ReFS, but it does handle a variety of failure modes pretty well.  I still see huge value in having user data integrity checks even for single user, small storage environment, for the same reason the filesystem validates its data and stores backup copies, etc.
But yeah, in the general purpose case, I agree, linux w/netatalk is a fine solution that I was using for many years until my own requirements changed a bit.

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#9 2015-04-27 23:43:59

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

max1zzz wrote:
ClassicHasClass wrote:

I'd like to do this kind of thing with a hacked Xbox 360. It's even PowerPC. After all, it is running some sort of Windows-based kernel under the hood.

(Aside: I think the 360 is even better than the XB1, despite the older hardware, because the 360 also plays most original Xbox games and the XB1 doesn't play anything from either previous system. Games like Bioshock Infinite still look pretty awesome on the 360 in 1080p, and thanks to its built-in Xbox emulation I've been rediscovering Simpsons Hit and Run and cackling to every wisecrack Homer makes. It's this close to eclipsing the Dreamcast as my favourite console.)

Now that is a good idea!

I was thinking of using a LC1 as a server for my old mac stuff, then i switched to the idea of using my WGS 6150 as a server, then to a VM... but a 360, i hadn't thought of that!

I have a spare jtaged xeon 360 with no real use for it, I might have a shot at loading linux onto it. (i'll have to see what the latest version of xbox 360 linux is, i know there is a version of debian 6 that runs on it, but last time i looked no one had ported debian 7 to it)

(I have to agree with you that the 360 is better than the XB1, the only thing that is tempting me to get a XB1 is that i am a big fan of the hale series, and halo 5 is going to be a XB1 only release.....)

I'm looking at getting one to mod with the reset glitch hack. At that point hopefully there's a LiveCD I can mount.

Eudimorphodon wrote:

I'd say for your average home user a regular offline backup routine is a far better strategy than relying on a magic filesystem to save you when something goes tits up.

Assuming, of course, that the hardware checksum on the sector saves you from silently propagating errors when you make the backup ...


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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#10 2015-04-27 23:51:53

TheWhiteFalcon
Member
Registered: 2015-04-27
Posts: 504

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

ClassicHasClass wrote:

I'd like to do this kind of thing with a hacked Xbox 360. It's even PowerPC. After all, it is running some sort of Windows-based kernel under the hood.

(Aside: I think the 360 is even better than the XB1, despite the older hardware, because the 360 also plays most original Xbox games and the XB1 doesn't play anything from either previous system. Games like Bioshock Infinite still look pretty awesome on the 360 in 1080p, and thanks to its built-in Xbox emulation I've been rediscovering Simpsons Hit and Run and cackling to every wisecrack Homer makes. It's this close to eclipsing the Dreamcast as my favourite console.)

I've had too many hardware issues for it to be on my best ever list. smile

That being said, it depends on the game. I was shocked to see my PS3 actually bog down in a game Saturday (Destiny), you could tell the hardware just couldn't handle the strain. Slowed down to maybe 15FPS. First time I'd seen that issue, Bungie did a good job wringing every last drop out of that thing.

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#11 2015-04-27 23:56:27

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

The white Xbox 360 was a mess and deserved all the abuse it got, but the Slims and Elites are much more reliable. I personally prefer the Slim because the Elite got rid of the accessory A/V port and the S/DIF audio. My Slim's been a champ.


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#12 2015-04-28 00:27:25

TheWhiteFalcon
Member
Registered: 2015-04-27
Posts: 504

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

I had a Pro, which died, was repaired, and then the DVD drive started to die. I have a 2009 Elite right now which is kinda on its last legs in many respects.

I actually bought a 2005 console last year, repaired it, and then sold it later. Wish I hadn't, that thing ran amazingly cool and reliably.

I probably need to open up both this Elite and my PS3 (a final revision Phat model) and replace the thermal paste on both.

On topic, you can still get Server 2000 through MSDN, right? That's a tempting option if I'm honest, I could easily put that on the Mac Mini (which spends its days running F@H when it's not playing music) and use it as a file server.

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#13 2015-04-28 05:03:13

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

If you have a paid subscription, maybe.

And I don't know why I typed Elite when I meant the 2013-present 360E. I've never owned one of the pre-Slim models, but I don't doubt your experience with that generation, unfortunately.


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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#14 2015-04-28 09:58:45

max1zzz
Member
Registered: 2014-05-18
Posts: 207
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

Some variants of the 360 are just awefull...

As s rule of thumb i always tell people to get either the phats with a jasper revision logicboard (which is the last revision of the phats when Microsoft actually got it together) or slims with a second revision (Corona) board or later (The first revision (Trinity) is also liable to problems). You can be pretty sure any of the older versions will break at some point

That said, assuming most problems are the classic RRoD (Caused by cold solder joints under the GPU) if you get the console repaired properly the first time the repair tends to last. My original xbox 360 (Phat, Falcon (3rd) revision motherboard, purchased new in 2007) RRoD'd back in 2013) I stuck it on my makeshift xbox 360 board preheater (aka a griddle with some bolts in it...) and reflowed the GPU and it's been good since smile

ClassicHasClass wrote:

I'm looking at getting one to mod with the reset glitch hack. At that point hopefully there's a LiveCD I can mount.

Your in luck, there are live cd's smile  but, there is nothing remotely new, to get anything even remotely new you will need to install it to a HDD (But, once the console has been Glitched / Jtaged you can use any Sata HDD you like with it)

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#15 2015-04-28 15:23:29

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

Done and done. I found a guy selling pre-modded RGHed ones which is even better because I'm quite sure I'd screw it up if I did it myself.


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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#16 2015-04-28 15:31:11

max1zzz
Member
Registered: 2014-05-18
Posts: 207
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

good luck smile I'll be trying the same thing with my spare xeon soon (just need to find & repair it's PSU)

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#17 2015-04-28 16:02:05

Eudimorphodon
Member
Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 525

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

ClassicHasClass wrote:

Assuming, of course, that the hardware checksum on the sector saves you from silently propagating errors when you make the backup ...

Sure, I suppose that could happen. Of course, what's more likely is you'll end up with data that's corrupted before it's ever written to disk because your consumer-quality "server" hardware doesn't use ECC RAM...

Anyway, again, I'm not arguing that "failsafe filesystems" have no value, I'm just saying that realistically you're not likely to find the enterprise-class hardware that you really need to take meaningful advantage of them in someone's house. And, really... even if you do have that sort of hardware are you suggesting that a magical filesystem is a *replacement* for backups? That strategy tends not to end well. wink


Flap Different.

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#18 2015-04-28 21:46:29

max1zzz
Member
Registered: 2014-05-18
Posts: 207
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

Ok had some fun with a xbox tonight, I don't know why i like running linux on things that aren't meant to run linux smile (one day i will track down the PS2 linux kit.... )

It seems to run a really old build of Gentoo quite well (this is the newest live cd i could find, and it's nearly a decade old! )

photo11.jpg

I'm not sure why the CPU only shows as 1Ghz per core, it should be 3.2Ghz a core

And a really bad picture of the mess that is booting this

photo111.jpg

(it's the mess of a console at the top of the stack 'o' xbox )

(i'll stop derailing this thread now.... )

Last edited by max1zzz (2015-04-28 21:47:05)

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#19 2015-04-29 18:47:41

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,470

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

One of the few cards I've ever really wanted that I never wanted back in the day and have yet to collect would be the ISA AppleTalk Card. Never needed it because I had the QuickLink(?) SCSI based solution to the DOS<->Mac file transfer conundrum, but it would be fun to play with one now! Great excuse to set up a DOS machine, but hoping to find the QuickLink Drivers backed up somewhere around here as an even better excuse.

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#20 2015-04-30 15:46:11

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: One of the ultimate Classic Mac networking tools is....

I have one in my 486 ISA tower. It's handy occasionally and was actually easier than d*cking around with NE2000 packet drivers for DOS TCP/IP support. The TSR is pretty well designed.


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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