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#1 2015-02-01 06:14:09

bigmessowires
Member
Registered: 2014-05-15
Posts: 183

Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

I'm not a Lisa guy, and not really interested in becoming one, but I've become curious just how close or far the Floppy Emu is from working on the Lisa. Here's what I think I know - please correct me where I'm wrong.

Lisa 1 had the Twiggy drives. And not many people own one of these.
Lisa 2, later renamed Macintosh XL, had the same Sony 400k floppy mechanism as the Mac 128K. And the same DB-19 external floppy port.
Lisa 2 used a different filesystem than the Mac (MFS). So even though they used the same drive and media, the disks weren't interchangeable.
Lisa software called Macworks XL allows a Lisa 2 to read 400k MFS macintosh floppies.

If that's all true, someone with a Lisa 2 and Floppy Emu should be able to run Macworks XL, then use a Floppy Emu to load a Mac disk on the Lisa. Anyone want to try it?

More interesting, it means that if we knew all the details of the Lisa filesystem, it would theoretically be possible to use the Floppy Emu hardware to emulate native Lisa floppies. For sure the Emu firmware would need to be modified to support the 12 tag bytes per sector that the Lisa requires, but I'm guessing there's a lot more to it than that. Size of a sector, number of sectors per track, sector ordering, sector headers, sector footers, sector checksums, etc… all may be different from a Mac. And do Lisa floppies even use GCR encoding? Who knows.

I also saw something about later Lisas that could use 800k floppies, but I'm not sure if that's right.

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#2 2015-02-01 06:22:40

unity
Member
Registered: 2015-01-09
Posts: 82

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

Facebook - its a rabbit hole sometimes. big_smile

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#3 2015-02-01 08:22:09

mcdermd
Member
From: Corvallis, OR
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 1,022
Website

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

I don't know why it wouldn't work with MacWorks but there's no external floppy port on my Lisa II. Was there an external expansion card for the expansion slot?


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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#4 2015-02-01 09:19:38

uniserver
Member
From: Sf, Mi
Registered: 2014-05-15
Posts: 956
Website

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

I think Lisa is crap,   They cook and burn out.
They are slow
THEy are disgustingly expensive
The market saturation is narrow

If you did get it to work ,   I would make a seperate
Product and sell for more, the ahole on Facebook
Ask him if he even owns a Lisa or is he just the boy tooting
His horn

I doubt he owns a working Lisa .
Witch makes his point moot.

Comparing your floppy emu to that 29 dollar 8 segment display
Piece of junk shows just how much of a DB he really is.


#I Re-Cap √Mac √NeTX √Amiga Boards - A/B - PSU# (MacCaps.com)  Modern SCSI HD's - For Old Macs - Pre Cfg'd - 10k RPM! 73gb!! $50 + free shipping  -- Mac 128K Re-Ram kits (16 Chips) $35 + shipping, Floppy Issues?-> Bourns Filter Solution 128k - SE/30, $16 + shipping

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#5 2015-02-01 12:41:42

techknight
Member
Registered: 2014-05-22
Posts: 453

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

did I miss something?

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#6 2015-02-01 14:25:45

uniserver
Member
From: Sf, Mi
Registered: 2014-05-15
Posts: 956
Website

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

well yeah mr anti Facebook…


#I Re-Cap √Mac √NeTX √Amiga Boards - A/B - PSU# (MacCaps.com)  Modern SCSI HD's - For Old Macs - Pre Cfg'd - 10k RPM! 73gb!! $50 + free shipping  -- Mac 128K Re-Ram kits (16 Chips) $35 + shipping, Floppy Issues?-> Bourns Filter Solution 128k - SE/30, $16 + shipping

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#7 2015-02-01 15:43:26

bigmessowires
Member
Registered: 2014-05-15
Posts: 183

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

There was a Facebook discussion that touched on Lisa floppy emulation. OK, so no external floppy port then. But it should work when connected to the internal floppy port, with a regular IDC-20 ribbon cable?

Also in the same Facebook discussion was someone asking how Floppy Emu was different from $30 floppy emulators on Amazon. A fair question, even if he phrased it rather aggressively. But that wasn't the same person who was asking about the Lisa.

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#8 2015-02-01 15:48:04

uniserver
Member
From: Sf, Mi
Registered: 2014-05-15
Posts: 956
Website

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

that is alright , lets hit them both with a frozen trout! smile


#I Re-Cap √Mac √NeTX √Amiga Boards - A/B - PSU# (MacCaps.com)  Modern SCSI HD's - For Old Macs - Pre Cfg'd - 10k RPM! 73gb!! $50 + free shipping  -- Mac 128K Re-Ram kits (16 Chips) $35 + shipping, Floppy Issues?-> Bourns Filter Solution 128k - SE/30, $16 + shipping

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#9 2015-02-01 15:52:11

uniserver
Member
From: Sf, Mi
Registered: 2014-05-15
Posts: 956
Website

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

I'm in the middle of re-capping NeXT optical drives…. I HATE re-capping NeXT optical drives.


#I Re-Cap √Mac √NeTX √Amiga Boards - A/B - PSU# (MacCaps.com)  Modern SCSI HD's - For Old Macs - Pre Cfg'd - 10k RPM! 73gb!! $50 + free shipping  -- Mac 128K Re-Ram kits (16 Chips) $35 + shipping, Floppy Issues?-> Bourns Filter Solution 128k - SE/30, $16 + shipping

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#10 2015-02-01 15:59:46

uniserver
Member
From: Sf, Mi
Registered: 2014-05-15
Posts: 956
Website

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

i don't like it when people bitch about the price of stuff for LISA…     THEN DONT COLLECT LISA………………….
my god..   people go to all the trouble to make these gadgets and are trying to break even with the cost of the project and their time…
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Profile-Widget- … 2ed04dc191

i mean the lisa market is narrow as helllllllll… anyways.  The guy was nice enough to make it, stop trying to find ways around paying what
the thing is worth.


#I Re-Cap √Mac √NeTX √Amiga Boards - A/B - PSU# (MacCaps.com)  Modern SCSI HD's - For Old Macs - Pre Cfg'd - 10k RPM! 73gb!! $50 + free shipping  -- Mac 128K Re-Ram kits (16 Chips) $35 + shipping, Floppy Issues?-> Bourns Filter Solution 128k - SE/30, $16 + shipping

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#11 2015-02-01 18:01:15

techknight
Member
Registered: 2014-05-22
Posts: 453

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

Yea, well I dont do facebook.

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#12 2015-02-01 18:04:09

ScutBoy
Member
Registered: 2014-05-25
Posts: 159

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

uniserver wrote:

I'm in the middle of re-capping NeXT optical drives…. I HATE re-capping NeXT optical drives.

Don't say that - I've been thinking about asking you to re-cap my NeXT optical drive. Now I'll have to wait until the bad memories fade and I can convince you to do another one smile

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#13 2015-02-01 19:13:40

uniserver
Member
From: Sf, Mi
Registered: 2014-05-15
Posts: 956
Website

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

its ok if you want me to do it that is fine.   one is fine.   its just a 4 pack gets to be annoying.


#I Re-Cap √Mac √NeTX √Amiga Boards - A/B - PSU# (MacCaps.com)  Modern SCSI HD's - For Old Macs - Pre Cfg'd - 10k RPM! 73gb!! $50 + free shipping  -- Mac 128K Re-Ram kits (16 Chips) $35 + shipping, Floppy Issues?-> Bourns Filter Solution 128k - SE/30, $16 + shipping

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#14 2015-02-02 16:37:06

Eudimorphodon
Member
Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 525

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

I have no idea what Facebook page everyone is ranting about. Do I want to?

bigmessowires wrote:

For sure the Emu firmware would need to be modified to support the 12 tag bytes per sector that the Lisa requires, but I'm guessing there's a lot more to it than that. Size of a sector, number of sectors per track, sector ordering, sector headers, sector footers, sector checksums, etc… all may be different from a Mac. And do Lisa floppies even use GCR encoding? Who knows.

Lisas are GCR, 512 byte sectors... basically compatible with the Mac disk geometry, there's just that 12 byte of tag data to worry about. Several programs exist to read and write Lisa disks on Macs; supposedly old versions of DiskCopy can do it, as well as something called "DART".

Maybe examing how this uses the tag information might be of some use in filling in some of the details, if Lisa compatibility were really something you wanted to aim for?


Flap Different.

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#15 2015-02-02 18:49:34

markyb
Member
From: Aurora, OH (330)
Registered: 2014-05-16
Posts: 185
Website

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

"Apple Macintosh Enthusiasts"


http://markyb86.weebly.com for some packs of old macintosh wallpapers, desktop patterns, windows wallpapers, sound files, etc.

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#16 2015-02-02 19:07:58

ScutBoy
Member
Registered: 2014-05-25
Posts: 159

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

DART is the only tool I've used to reliably copy/image/write Lisa disks on a Mac

BLU (http://sigmasevensystems.com/BLU) should do this as well, but I've not used it - and it runs on Lisa hardware. From what I understand it's sort of like ADTPro for Lisa.

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#17 2015-02-02 21:07:08

volvo242gt
Member
From: Duvall, WA
Registered: 2014-05-22
Posts: 410
Website

Re: Lisa 400k floppy emulation with Floppy Emu

The FB group that everyone's ranting about is the one that I created when the other forum was down for its reboot.

Here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/macenthusiasts/

-J


modern: Mac Pro 2.8GHz 8-core 6GB/500G/DVD-RW, Mid-2010 A1286 MBP
PPC: G3/400
Pre-Mac: //e
other: iPhone 6s 128GB Space Gray

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