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#26 2016-03-14 14:55:29

Eudimorphodon
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Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 525

Re: IBM 5160 Project

80 column text mode is a challenge for composite, not going to whitewash that. First thing that helps is of course to use a "computer grade" monitor instead of a TV (the composite color monitors Apple sold to go with the IIe would actually be a good choice), and the other thing is the DOS MODE command. With a CGA card you can use the "bw80" argument to turn off the colorburst signal in text mode. How much that will help depends on your monitor; some computer grade monitors back in the day were clever enough to emulate a mono monitor if they didn't get a clear colorburst, while others will still make colorful hash out of it. Sort of curious what an LCD might think.


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#27 2016-03-14 16:29:16

Eudimorphodon
Member
Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 525

Re: IBM 5160 Project

Another option if you wanted to retain the CGA card would be to get one of those cheap RGB scaler boards they have on eBay and whatnot and use that to display on a VGA monitor. The trick there, of course, is that CGA is digital RGBI instead of analog so to get all 16 colors you need a conversion circuit like one of the ones detailed here. (The Commodore 128 has the same kind of output as a CGA card.)


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#28 2016-03-15 15:23:20

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

Ultimately I would prefer to retain the CGA card, although I don't mind swapping some cards around. I'll hold onto the CGA card and look at converters but if I had an MDA card and a VGA card to work with on the side that would be handy as well.


Something interesting I came across in my travels this evening. There isn't much information out there now on IBM's Wangaratta plant. As a matter of fact searching for it often directs me back to this forum thread, but I did manage to find an Australian TV commercial for this machine called "Made in Wangaratta".


I also came across a post on the EEVBlog forums from a former Wangaratta employee, detailing some of the testing procedures these machines underwent following final assembly.

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ibm-p … #msg681257

They also mention that IBM Australia manufactured large volumes of processors for the Power Macintosh. That's something I didn't know.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#29 2016-03-16 10:17:40

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

Thanks to tkc8800, the IBM XT is now MDA video compatible.

Connected the MDA CRT to it and sure enough, it produced a video image. Albeit a narrow one. A single vertical line in the centre of the CRT to be exact. I'm confident the video card works as I was able to make out the memory test on startup ticking over.

So now I know the CRT is defective.

After about a minute of running it started to produce an acrid burning electrical smell with a hint of "fishiness". The common scent of capacitor electrolyte that has leaked or is in the process of burning off. Looks like the CRT electronics are up for an overhaul. I'm not sure when I'll tackle this one, the machine itself needs a lot of work done still so the display remains a low priority. I'll set it aside and do some troubleshooting at a later time.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#30 2016-03-16 11:17:48

LCGuy
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From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-13
Posts: 818

Re: IBM 5160 Project

Wow, I knew IBM made some stuff in Australia, but I had no idea their manufacturing operation here was so big. I never would've thought that any of the components in any Mac would have been made in Australia, let alone CPUs.

All this stuff we used to build right here in the country and export...now all we seem to do is pull our raw materials out of the ground, ship them off to China and buy them back in the form of cheap TVs...sad.

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#31 2016-03-16 23:42:03

tkc8800
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From: Adelaide
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 25
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

iMic wrote:

Thanks to tkc8800, the IBM XT is now MDA video compatible.

Connected the MDA CRT to it and sure enough, it produced a video image. Albeit a narrow one. A single vertical line in the centre of the CRT to be exact. I'm confident the video card works as I was able to make out the memory test on startup ticking over.

So now I know the CRT is defective.

After about a minute of running it started to produce an acrid burning electrical smell with a hint of "fishiness". The common scent of capacitor electrolyte that has leaked or is in the process of burning off. Looks like the CRT electronics are up for an overhaul. I'm not sure when I'll tackle this one, the machine itself needs a lot of work done still so the display remains a low priority. I'll set it aside and do some troubleshooting at a later time.

I had exactly the same issue with my 128k Mac, vertical line down the centre of the screen.  This is called horizontal collapse (yes, horizontal because the picture has collapsed horizontally).  It ended up being as simply as a dry solder joint on the analogue power board.  Check solder joints in CRT.  I found the problem by wiggling the internal wires while powered on with the cover off.  ** Be super careful doing this, as there are high voltages involved **

Last edited by tkc8800 (2016-03-16 23:44:55)

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#32 2016-03-16 23:44:17

tkc8800
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From: Adelaide
Registered: 2015-10-03
Posts: 25
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

iMic wrote:

Ultimately I would prefer to retain the CGA card, although I don't mind swapping some cards around. I'll hold onto the CGA card and look at converters but if I had an MDA card and a VGA card to work with on the side that would be handy as well.


Something interesting I came across in my travels this evening. There isn't much information out there now on IBM's Wangaratta plant. As a matter of fact searching for it often directs me back to this forum thread, but I did manage to find an Australian TV commercial for this machine called "Made in Wangaratta".


I also came across a post on the EEVBlog forums from a former Wangaratta employee, detailing some of the testing procedures these machines underwent following final assembly.

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/ibm-p … #msg681257

They also mention that IBM Australia manufactured large volumes of processors for the Power Macintosh. That's something I didn't know.

Great video, I checked my 5150, it has a "made in Wangaratta" sticker on the back.  Sad to think this stuff is not done in Australia anymore.

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#33 2016-03-18 02:32:35

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

tkc8800 wrote:

I had exactly the same issue with my 128k Mac, vertical line down the centre of the screen.  This is called horizontal collapse (yes, horizontal because the picture has collapsed horizontally).  It ended up being as simply as a dry solder joint on the analogue power board.  Check solder joints in CRT.  I found the problem by wiggling the internal wires while powered on with the cover off.  ** Be super careful doing this, as there are high voltages involved **

I'll remove the board and inspect it soon, if it were a solder joint that would be fantastic but since the display smelled like it was burning, I'm expecting a failure that is somewhat more sinister. Still, perhaps I'll be fortunate and a recap and solder of some suspect joints will bring it back to life. It still works at the moment, so it still looks to be repairable.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#34 2016-03-26 07:05:13

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

Spoke to one of the paint specialists at the suppliers this afternoon who told me what I had suspected. The paint I had recommended for this particular application is not the correct one and should never have been used on this machine. Not happy considering that advice has effectively ruined a rare machine frame. The process of restoring the case now becomes much more difficult.

  • All enclosure badges and stickers need to be removed.

  • The enclosure needs to be sand blasted or soda blasted in a controlled spray booth.

  • The enclosure needs to be primed.

  • A colour matched IBM dark grey paint needs to be mixed.

  • The enclosure needs to be powder coated or electrostatic coated in a controlled spray booth.


I don't expect this to be an inexpensive process. The finish however would be incredible, following the same application process as was used in initial assembly.

Any enclosure stickers will most likely need to be remade as replicas. I was able to remove the factory case stickers, which are metal and a thicker plastic, with a combination of low heat and a plastic card. So if I replace the adhesive backing these factory decals can all be reused and reapplied.

It's a time consuming process and I have other more pressing matters that need attention at the moment, but this is something I intend to continue to work toward. Additionally it makes more sense to take the necessary time and get the finished product as close to perfect as possible instead of rushing it and ending with something that isn't up to scratch.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#35 2016-05-04 04:45:35

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

Well it finally happened. The IBM XT chassis has been delivered to the painters in preparation for sand blasting and electrostatic painting in the factory flat black. There are some challenges to overcome, particularly in some of the more complex fixtures, but we should be able to work out a solution.

Current costings would come to a little under $200 for the complete back to metal respray.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#36 2016-06-05 05:30:16

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

The metal and paint shop performing the restoration had some initial problems with the complexity of the structure, which increased the required time frames dramatically, but it has now been sand blasted and etch primed. Hopefully it should be electrostatic painted and baked to harden soon. Then the reassembly can begin.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#37 2016-06-24 07:28:45

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

The enclosure came back from the painters, resprayed in the original colour and texture. The painters took a while but the results are incredible. More pictures to follow.

IMG_1112sml.jpg


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#38 2016-06-25 06:59:52

mcdermd
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From: Corvallis, OR
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 970
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

Legit, dude. Nice.


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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#39 2016-06-25 13:34:38

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

mcdermd wrote:

Legit, dude. Nice.

I couldn't be happier with the finish, and the price either. $110 for a back to metal respray isn't half bad.


Started taking apart the power supply this afternoon for a clean and service. It's been 30 years since it was built so it was overdue for it.

IMG_1115_1280.jpg

IMG_1116_1280.jpg

IMG_1117_1280.jpg


I'd expected the cleaning to take an hour at the most, but I went overboard, stripped the unit and cleaned it end to end.

IMG_1128_1280.jpg


With that completed, I was able to start reassembling the machine. There are still some issues that need to be addressed, so I can't complete the machine yet, but it's starting to come together.

Most importantly though, it starts up again after being disassembled into boxes and anti-static bags for two months.

IMG_1145_1280.jpg

IMG_1147_1280.jpg

IMG_1148_1280.jpg


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#40 2016-06-25 15:16:29

cc333
Member
From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 572

Re: IBM 5160 Project

*Very* well done!

This makes me want to go out and find one myself!

Where's the outer shell? What condition is it in??

c

Last edited by cc333 (2016-06-25 15:17:21)


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
Desired: Lisa, Kanga PowerBook G3, Apple IIc, Apple II, Spare parts, etc.

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#41 2016-06-25 16:05:41

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

cc333 wrote:

Where's the outer shell? What condition is it in??

Currently hidden under the table the machine is sitting on.

The case condition is very good for a machine built 30 years ago. Only some small chips and a single scratch toward the back of the case.

IMG_1149_1280.jpg

IMG_1152_1280.jpg

IMG_1155_1280.jpg

I would prefer to touch up the defects rather than perform a full respray, because unlike the internal frame it would be much harder to accurately colour and texture match the exterior paintwork. The condition doesn't warrant a full respray either. Other than those 3 or 4 minor imperfections the finish is perfect elsewhere.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#42 2016-12-07 13:22:12

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
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Re: IBM 5160 Project

Finding replacement parts for a machine this old isn't easy.

I managed to source a replacement IBM/Tandon 5.25" 360K drive locally for a reasonable price. Also came across some other interesting pieces, including an early IBM-branded Seagate ST-412 HDD and a Paradise 8-Bit VGA video adapter that both went into the machine.

VpwTmPh.jpg

5SiO576.jpg


So, the rare components have now all been sourced.

I did encounter a strange issue involving the ST-412, any software that accessed the drive would lock the system up. It couldn't be formatted or partitioned either. After some head scratching it occurred to me that the switches on the drive controller card were still configured for the MiniScribe. Switched those to the correct positions and performed a low-level format with the IBM Advanced Diagnostics disk, and we're back in business.

Almost. My collection of 5.25" Floppy Disks has degraded in recent years and so moving data between the machines is almost impossible. I did manage to find one disk that formatted and tested fine, and so I've been using a single disk to move data across to the XT. Installing MS-DOS was interesting, five floppies and I needed to image the installation files onto the same disk every time it prompted me for Disk 2, 3, 4 and 5.

I'll have to source some replacement floppies soon, and probably look into adding a CompactFlash or IDE interface of some kind.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#43 2016-12-11 06:52:31

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 889
Website

Re: IBM 5160 Project

Performing a surface scan with SpinRite on the ST-412 shows that despite its age, it's in remarkably good running condition. No bad sectors and the motor and stepper seek sounds are whisper quiet. Not bad for a 30 year old drive.

8ZKXTZM.jpg


After a frantic scramble to reassemble the machine in time, the still incomplete IBM went on display at the Adelaide Retro Computing Group December event. No software to demonstrate at this time, but that will come later.

MVnbdf2.jpg

G66gYaz.jpg

DbNXkn3.jpg

9KYlAWW.jpg

0Wj2S6P.jpg


Some improvements still to be made:

  • Replace case screws with original replacements or replicas

  • Reattach factory case badges and labels

  • Replace cork disc case feet

  • Replace internal MFM and FDD ribbon cables with IBM factory originals (current ones are a bit chewed up, but will be good as spares)

  • Add Microbee CGA-VGA adapter for IBM Color Graphics card video output

  • Add AdLib or Creative (CMS/Sound Blaster) 8-Bit Audio Card (if I can find one, or compatible Yamaha YM3812 OPL2 card)

  • Restore XT Keyboard (it's currently a lot yellower than it should be)

A member of the retro computing group donated two packs of 5.25" floppies to the cause, which has made data transfer between machines much easier and allowed me to confirm the Tandon 5.25" drive is reading and writing correctly (we tested between some other IBM machines present on the night).

Still working out what to do with the machine when it's finished and what software to run on it, but I think it would be interesting to generate some 8-bit music with it at some point. I know there are better machines for this but I've come to like this IBM.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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