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#76 2015-01-03 05:04:32

markyb
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From: Aurora, OH (330)
Registered: 2014-05-16
Posts: 185
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Ahh I figured it would be a bit of a stretch. Just wanted to get your two cents on it. Thanks for the reply.


http://markyb86.weebly.com for some packs of old macintosh wallpapers, desktop patterns, windows wallpapers, sound files, etc.

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#77 2015-01-05 13:36:40

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
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Posts: 948
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I had a free afternoon, so I decided to tackle this project a little more. I've made some interesting developments.

The PowerBook G4 Titanium contained an ATI Mobility Radeon 9000 with the codename Xia, model number RV280M9. There are Mac OS 9 extensions available for this GPU. After some research I discovered that the Mobility Radeon 9200 is essentially another version of this chip. The core and memory clocks, VRAM sizes, fillrates, memory bandwidth and bus width are the same between chips. The 9200 is codenamed Via, model number RV280M9+.


If I extract the drivers from a TiBook Install CD, edit the resource and data forks to reflect the Via model and load it on startup, some limited functionality is enabled. Colour and resolution switching is enabled and the correct amount of VRAM is detected. The internal display is correctly detected as an iBook panel in the Monitors Control Panel.

In addition, the backlight slider is now available in the Monitors control panel, however it can't currently be controlled. On startup the brightness is reduced, so Mac OS can communicate with the backlight controller correctly, but it isn't enabling adjustments by the user at this time.


This solution is extremely different from the previous solution I put forward with the ATI Bugsy (Radeon 9200 Desktop) drivers. Unlike those drivers, which were written for a desktop card, the Xia drivers are built for a Mobile GPU. They correctly understand the concept of internal and external displays. Unlike the Bugsy drivers, which I had to split into separate ATI Via_A and ATI Via_B extensions (one for internal, one for external), the Xia drivers correctly detect both interfaces and control them with just one extension.

Unfortunately, sleep mode still doesn't work. The computer can enter sleep, complete with turning off the backlight (something the Bugsy driver couldn't do), but the machine will still never wake.


This is a massive deal. It means we have extensions that were designed for a notebook computer working in a limited capacity with the Mobility Radeon 9200, complete with all the notebook computer goodies that a desktop card and its drivers don't have.

If the backlight could be made to work correctly, these would provide enough functionality for an OS 9 compatible iBook G4 capable of performing basic tasks like playing music, editing documents and running some older Mac OS games, like SimCity 2000 as I demonstrated earlier.



Cheers,

iMic.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Electronic Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#78 2015-01-05 19:13:23

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 948
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Update

I decided to take what is quite a long shot and extract the NDRV from the iBook G4 Graphics Update 1.0 for Mac OS X. I extracted the NDRV for the Mobility Radeon 9200 from the ATIDriver file inside ATIDriver.bundle (System/Library/Extensions/AppleNDRV/ATIDriver.bundle) with a Hex Editor and placed it into the ATI Driver Update extension for Mac OS 9.

Incredibly, it actually works - somewhat. Framebuffer is enabled, colour and resolution switching is enabled and the amount of VRAM is detected correctly. Unfortunately the backlight control slider, while present, still doesn't do anything. Sleep still doesn't work correctly either.

Still, rather impressive that anything made for Mac OS X would load on OS 9 though. This is the first time that a driver specifically written for the ATI Via (Mob. Radeon 9200) has been loaded on OS 9. The fact it still doesn't work makes me wonder if there are still some underlying issues. This does open the possibility of making some basic framebuffer drivers for other OS X only video hardware out of their OS X drivers.



Update 2

With the extracted OS X driver, turning off the display with inactivity to save energy works, but dimming the backlight doesn't. Still, it's another feature gained.

Startup and shutdown performance is improved. The machine no longer sits at a black screen for 15 or so seconds before shutting down or restarting - it's now instant.

I've also noticed that the ATI Video Accelerator extension is attempting to load on startup, but is failing (freezes requiring a force quit). Nothing is recorded in the nanokernel log, so I'm not sure how to troubleshoot this issue further.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Electronic Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#79 2015-01-06 12:01:01

uniserver
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From: Sf, Mi
Registered: 2014-05-15
Posts: 956
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I think this progress you are making is really great man!  I'm excited how far we can take this…

Man it would be awesome if we could get the G4 Mac mini to run.


#I Re-Cap √Mac √NeTX √Amiga Boards - A/B - PSU# (MacCaps.com)  Modern SCSI HD's - For Old Macs - Pre Cfg'd - 10k RPM! 73gb!! $50 + free shipping  -- Mac 128K Re-Ram kits (16 Chips) $35 + shipping, Floppy Issues?-> Bourns Filter Solution 128k - SE/30, $16 + shipping

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#80 2015-01-06 12:35:28

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 948
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Backlight Control

The iBook G4 now has full backlight controller support under Mac OS 9.2. The solution was found in the Open Firmware device tree, at the following branch:

/pci@f2000000/mac-io@17/backlight@f300

The backlight-control property carried the value 6d6e6361 00, which is the string mnca in hex. I compared this to an iBook G3 Clamshell, which has a backlight-control property with the value 61746900, which is the string ati in hex. Changing mnca in Open Firmware to ati restored the backlight functionality on the iBook G4.

However, Mac OS 9 already has support for backlight controllers of the type mnca in the Mac OS ROM, as evidenced by the presence of this data at data fork offset 0x20D4AD:

panel-family DFP,EDID ATY NVDA driver-ref backlight-control ati pmu mnca

All I did was reverse the order of ati and mnca in the ROM:

panel-family DFP,EDID ATY NVDA driver-ref backlight-control mnca pmu ati

Now, I can control the internal display brightness with the brightness keys and from within the Monitors control panel. This does require another revision of the Mac OS ROM for the iBook G4. An ideal scenario would be to somehow write the revised backlight driver into an extension (which may not be possible) that is loaded alongside the standard 10.2.1 Generic ROM, but this is still a reasonable solution.



Video Driver Status

With the latest round of fixes, the following video capabilities are now available on the iBook G4:

  • Resolution Switching (640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768)

  • Colour Mode Switching (256 Grays, 256 Colours, Thousands of Colours and Millions of Colours)

  • Video Framebuffer

  • VRAM Detection

  • Brightness Control

  • Display Sleep & Dimming

  • ColorSync Configuration (Gamma & White Point)


The following features still don't work correctly:

  • 2D/3D Hardware Acceleration

  • Wake From Sleep *


* This hasn't been directly attributed to the video driver. It could be an issue elsewhere in the machine and system software causing the inability to wake from sleep.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Electronic Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#81 2015-01-06 14:52:36

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I'd still like to hear if anyone who has one of the machines bridging the 10.3.5 requirement has tested my theory.


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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#82 2015-01-06 14:54:21

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Also, I'm concerned your change may not be compatible with earlier backlights. The OF alteration might be a more compatible plan.


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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#83 2015-01-06 15:22:33

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 948
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

ClassicHasClass wrote:

Also, I'm concerned your change may not be compatible with earlier backlights. The OF alteration might be a more compatible plan.


The main issue is that Open Firmware data doesn't hold, especially on the iBook. If I remove the battery for any reason, I'll have to re-enter the commands on startup. I can write the modification into an OF script for easier loading, and that's still on the cards.


I have my doubts that we'll be able to produce a one-size-fits-all ROM. Changes that need to be made for later machines (like the Mac Mini for example, should it ever happen), will likely break the ability to boot Mac OS on an older machine. So, if this version of the ROM with modified backlight code needs to be specifically for the iBook G4, that shouldn't be a problem. I'll change the version strings accordingly.


The most ideal solution would be to spin-off the backlight driver in the ROM to a standalone extension. That way, the backlight driver in the ROM could remain untouched and this extension could be dropped into the Extensions folder on an iBook G4 to correct the problem. I'm not entirely sure how difficult this will be though.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Electronic Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#84 2015-01-06 19:58:30

Centris
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 2014-12-29
Posts: 9

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

To ClassicHasClass theory. If i boot Mac OS 9.2.2 Unsupported G4s on my eMac 1.25 that comes with OSX 10.3.3 as standard. Then there is a grey screen. And nothing happens. Unlike my PowerBook G4 5.9 which crashes on the grey screen. And there is no Happy Mac on the grey screen.

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#85 2015-01-06 21:52:03

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 948
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Centris wrote:

~ If i boot Mac OS 9.2.2 Unsupported G4s on my eMac 1.25 that comes with OSX 10.3.3 as standard. Then there is a grey screen. And nothing happens. Unlike my PowerBook G4 5.9 which crashes on the grey screen. And there is no Happy Mac on the grey screen.


That machine has a PowerPC 7457 processor in it. It could be that OS 9 isn't recognising the newer CPU, which is halting the boot. I had exactly the same symptoms with a 1.2GHz iBook G4 with a 7447 in it.

Insert the Mac OS 9.2.2 Unsupported G4s CD into the optical drive. Then from Open Firmware, enter the following (pressing return after each line):


dev /cpus/PowerPC,G4@0

80010201 encode-int " cpu-version" property

boot cd:,\\:tbxi

It should then start booting from the CD. The cpu-version property is temporarily (until the next reboot) changed to that of an older G4, so Mac OS 9 should be able to start loading on it.


If it still doesn't work, then perhaps there are some other issues that need to be overcome, like we're currently experiencing with the Mac Mini.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Electronic Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#86 2015-01-06 23:34:21

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

The OF issues could be solved with a CHRP boot script. Here's an example: https://github.com/pnasrat/yaboot/blob/ … eboot.chrp


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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#87 2015-01-06 23:36:31

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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#88 2015-01-07 06:10:15

cc333
Member
From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 600

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I don't think it's so bad to have various "machine-specific" ROM files for, say, the iBook G4 and Mac Mini, so long as they're clearly delineated.

However, it would be nice if we can get some sort of Nvidia drivers working for the 12" PowerBook G4 (the contemporary 17" model uses an ATI Radeon 9600 or 9700 chipset, so your work on the drivers might be somewhat more easily adapted to that machine).

Also, I think the issues with sleep/wake may lie in the Energy Saver control panel (and any related extensions), as on other late-model machines officially supporting native-OS 9 bootability (the iBook G3, for instance), there is a similar behavior when that control panel is not present.

c


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
Desired: Lisa, Kanga PowerBook G3, Apple IIc, Apple II, Spare parts, etc.

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#89 2015-01-07 07:55:45

iMic
Administrator
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 948
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

ClassicHasClass wrote:

The OF issues could be solved with a CHRP boot script. Here's an example: https://github.com/pnasrat/yaboot/blob/ … eboot.chrp


Looks promising. I'll revisit these when we've finalised the necessary changes for OS 9 and start creating scripts for them.


I also hope to investigate further what prevents the Mac OS ROM from communicating correctly with the mnca backlights. I'll also test the modified ROMs on some older PowerBooks and iBooks to see whether it breaks compatibility with those. We may still be able to fix this issue without creating issues for other systems.



cc333 wrote:

I don't think it's so bad to have various "machine-specific" ROM files for, say, the iBook G4 and Mac Mini, so long as they're clearly delineated.

However, it would be nice if we can get some sort of Nvidia drivers working for the 12" PowerBook G4 (the contemporary 17" model uses an ATI Radeon 9600 or 9700 chipset, so your work on the drivers might be somewhat more easily adapted to that machine).

The Mobility Radeon 9600 and 9700 are ideal targets for the next round of video driver experiments. I expect it will be a slow and difficult process since I don't have a machine to test with myself, but if someone is willing to perform some testing, then perhaps we should start talking. ( The IRC channel or Skype would be ideal for some rapid-fire troubleshooting and discussion ).

nVidia cards will also be getting a look into. The GeForce 4 MX is already detected by Mac OS 9, but is unable to drive the internal display of an iMac G4 since it doesn't have panel information to work with. If nVidia card extensions are built in the same fashion as the ATI drivers, and Mac OS X contains usable NDRVs, then it should be possible to extract that basic GPU and panel information out of OS X like I did with the ATI Mobility Radeon 9200.


Our focus for the moment should remain on machines that are currently capable of booting to the desktop. CC_333's PowerBook G4 12" and 17", iBook G4s and iMac G4s are perfect examples, being almost there but needing just a little assistance to make it over the line.



cc333 wrote:

Also, I think the issues with sleep/wake may lie in the Energy Saver control panel (and any related extensions), as on other late-model machines officially supporting native-OS 9 bootability (the iBook G3, for instance), there is a similar behavior when that control panel is not present.

c


Excellent, this gives me somewhere to look next. smile



Cheers,

iMic.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Electronic Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#90 2015-01-07 18:12:30

cc333
Member
From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 600

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Indeed smile

I realized that PowerBook G3s and iMac G3s also exhibit this behavior when that extension is missing (or when a minimal install of OS 8/9 is in place).

I would offer to send you one of my machines for testing (my other 12" PowerBook, perhaps?), except shipping overseas would likely be astronomical.

That being said, I would be happy to help out with testing, time permitting (with guidance, of course).

I think this is probably the final obstacle we need to overcome to get a moderately functional OS 9 install going on these machines.

Keep up the good work!

c


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
Desired: Lisa, Kanga PowerBook G3, Apple IIc, Apple II, Spare parts, etc.

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#91 2015-01-07 19:39:20

Centris
Member
From: Denmark
Registered: 2014-12-29
Posts: 9

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I have tired the open firmware commands to change the PowerPC G4 model on my eMac 1.25. Then Mac OS 9.2.2 Unsupported G4s boots to the desktop. I restored the system software using the program on the disc. Then I restarted the eMac. Entered the open firmware commands. And booted to the hard drive. The Happy Mac was there. The Welcome to Mac OS did come after that. Then it started up and loaded the extensions. When it was finish and ready to show the desktop. Then it halted. It was still at the Mac OS 9.2 splash screen. Also the eMac 1.25 has a Ati radeon 9200.

Last edited by Centris (2015-01-07 20:32:10)

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#92 2015-01-08 00:55:37

iMic
Administrator
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 948
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I've discovered that the ATI Video Accelerator extension will often halt the machine as it reaches the desktop. It would explain why the machine started successfully from the disc, as the CD doesn't have this extension but the full installation does.

I would remove that extension and see how it runs.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Electronic Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#93 2015-01-08 05:06:03

iMic
Administrator
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 948
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Help Wanted


I'm currently seeking the assistance of anyone with a PowerBook (15" and 17" AlBooks) with either an ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 or 9700 GPU.

I need information from these machines found within System Profiler on Mac OS 9 about the GPU. Click the Devices & Volumes tab and open the disclosure triangle next to Built-in Display Card. I need the identifier for the card, usually starting with ATY, or ATI,.

In addition, if you can provide the model identifier of your machine (PowerBookX,X) it will make this process much easier.

Once I have this information, I'll attempt to build extensions for these GPUs as well. These extensions will of course need testing, so if you're running Mac OS 9 on one of these machines already, I'll supply these extensions back to you for verification.



The current status of the ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 driver for iBooks hasn't changed. It manages to make the iBook G4 a usable OS 9 machine, providing some of the fundamental screen controls necessary for running common Mac OS Classic applications and older games. I have bundled the custom drivers into a new extension called ATI Via Driver to make the process much easier for end users, and I would now like to see if the same can be done for other Radeons in the series.


Some users have questioned what machines are supported at this stage, and what their support status is. I follow the AppleCare model names for distinguishing between machines. I would recommend downloading Mactracker, which has a comprehensive list of these AppleCare models and what clock speed and hardware combinations fall under each.


Power Macintosh G4 (FW 800)
Supported. Requires Generic 10.2.1 ROM.

iBook G4
Supported. Requires iBook 10.2.1 ROM, ATI Via Driver and Insomnia Extension (to disable automatic sleep).
- Hardware Graphics Acceleration and Sleep Mode isn't supported.

iBook G4 (Early 2004)
Supported (some issues). Requires iBook 10.2.1 ROM, ATI Via Driver and Insomnia Extension (to disable automatic sleep).
- Open Firmware commands are required on startup or in the nvramrc for the 7447A CPU.
- Hardware Graphics Acceleration and Sleep Mode isn't supported.

iBook G4 (Late 2004)
Supported (some issues). Requires iBook 10.2.1 ROM, ATI Via Driver and Insomnia Extension (to disable automatic sleep).
- Open Firmware commands are required on startup or in the nvramrc for the 7447A CPU.
- Hardware Graphics Acceleration and Sleep Mode isn't supported.


I haven't yet released the necessary files for iBooks, but I hope to have an initial offering to the public soon.

As we start signing off on machines, I'll likely branch this out into a separate thread with a list of machines, known issues and available downloads.


Cheers,

iMic.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Electronic Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#94 2015-01-08 12:27:28

cc333
Member
From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 600

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

OK, here you go:

Built-In display card Identifier: ATI,Jasper_A (or ATI,Jasper_B, as there seems to be two entries)
Machine ID: PowerBook5,3

I hope this helps!

c

Last edited by cc333 (2015-01-08 12:28:14)


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
Desired: Lisa, Kanga PowerBook G3, Apple IIc, Apple II, Spare parts, etc.

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#95 2015-01-08 16:34:21

mcdermd
Member
From: Corvallis, OR
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 1,022
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I have the very-last generation PowerBook G4 ("PowerBook5,8", 1.67 GHz, high resolution) with the 9700. If you think there's any chance it would boot your ROM, I suppose I could dig it out and give it a try


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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#96 2015-01-08 17:46:45

cc333
Member
From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 600

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Mcdermd: I have one of those as well, but it needs a lot of work to be operable (new keyboard I think, new case, RAM, hard drive, etc.)

If we get around to testing Nvidia cards, I have my 12" PB I can test with.

c


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
Desired: Lisa, Kanga PowerBook G3, Apple IIc, Apple II, Spare parts, etc.

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#97 2015-01-08 18:33:09

mcdermd
Member
From: Corvallis, OR
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 1,022
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I downloaded the CD from the previous link, performed the Open Firmware CPU version hack but boot was immediately halted and the system shut down with:

, checksum error
Loading ELF

DO-QUIESCE finished

15" PowerBook G4 1.67 GHz, High Res (PowerBook5,8)


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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#98 2015-01-08 19:26:35

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,118
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Yep. I still advance my 10.3.5 theory.


Machine room (updated for 2019!): http://www.floodgap.com/etc/machines.html

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#99 2015-01-08 19:38:26

mcdermd
Member
From: Corvallis, OR
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 1,022
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I think you're probably right. Did Sonnet ever have an enabler or firmware patch to use the newer CPUs on older OS levels?


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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#100 2015-01-08 20:34:19

mcdermd
Member
From: Corvallis, OR
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 1,022
Website

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I had another thought - the late iBooks and Powerbooks replaced out the internal ADB keyboard/mouse with one on the USB bus. Dunno if that would have any effect.


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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