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#51 2014-12-06 03:21:49

cc333
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From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 571

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

ClassicHasClass: You make some good points re: OS 9 on a G5. It's too different and most likely will never work (stranger things have happened).

However, if we can get someone who has at least SOME knowledge about writing extensions and drivers for such things as WiFi cards, USB 2.0 and FW800, then that could conceivably work.

c


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
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#52 2014-12-06 05:45:05

jt
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From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

USB2 driver support for Native9 is the Holy F*****G Grail. roll

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#53 2014-12-06 07:12:29

cc333
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From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 571

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

jt wrote:

USB2 driver support for Native9 is the Holy F*****G Grail. roll

Indeed!

Also add full AirPort Extreme support with WPA2 to that, and we'll be all set!! smile

c


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
Desired: Lisa, Kanga PowerBook G3, Apple IIc, Apple II, Spare parts, etc.

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#54 2014-12-07 02:25:31

Veneteaou
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Registered: 2014-12-07
Posts: 2

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Hi everyone! I've been excitedly following this thread and the OS9Lives thread for some time now, figured I should start contributing.

I had a thought regarding video card drivers: is there any possibility of taking the source code of open source (Linux) Radeon drivers, and using CodeWarrior/GCC/etc. to compile them for PPC? It may not be a perfect fix, but these laptops do run Linux flawlessly so it might be another good place to start.

I won't have a working iBook in front of me for a month or two, but when I do I'm going to be (hopefully) more useful.

Eric

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#55 2014-12-07 03:08:55

mcdermd
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From: Corvallis, OR
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Posts: 965
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

That would be great if Mac OS was *nix wink


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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#56 2014-12-07 04:56:14

Veneteaou
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Registered: 2014-12-07
Posts: 2

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

That shouldn't matter if the source code gets built for OS9. We know any assembly code present is going to work because it's written for the PPC architecture, so at the worst we would have to sit and possibly cut/paste from the linux code to some OS9-friendly video driver source code. And that's only if it wasn't working out of the box.

Unless I'm missing something major.

Last edited by Veneteaou (2014-12-07 04:57:13)

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#57 2014-12-07 06:10:53

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I've reviewed the issues we've overcome so far and some of the issues we still have to address, and I think it's about time to report that we may have hit the wall.


The Mac OS will boot correctly on several of these machines, but making the system usable is another challenge. Take for example the iBook G4. We need to develop functional drivers for the ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 before we could ever hope to enable hardware acceleration, backlight controls or display sleep. However we don't have any engineers on board at this stage that have sufficient knowledge of ATI's graphics hardware, nor do we have anyone with the necessarily knowledge to develop extensions for the Mac OS to address these problems.

We have a lot of hypothetical scenarios that could work, like examining Linux drivers for the hardware, but without anyone to turn this into a practical solution that directly works with Mac OS 9 it remains nothing but a theory.

If there's one area where progress could be made still, it's on hardware that shares similarities with supported systems but doesn't quite make the cut, like the iMac G4s with GeForce 4 MX Graphics Processors.


I'll continue to work on this project as time allows. It's becoming difficult to allocate time to work on it though, especially considering that the advancement has slowed down considerably as we attempt to resolve issues with hardware support.

Last edited by iMic (2014-12-07 06:26:58)


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#58 2014-12-07 06:17:25

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Veneteaou wrote:

That shouldn't matter if the source code gets built for OS9. We know any assembly code present is going to work because it's written for the PPC architecture, so at the worst we would have to sit and possibly cut/paste from the linux code to some OS9-friendly video driver source code. And that's only if it wasn't working out of the box.

Unless I'm missing something major.

If you have any open source OS 9 video extensions, please advise. smile

Joking aside, while in theory it should work, in practise there's nothing to put it in. All of the extant OS 9 video extensions I know of are proprietary, and I don't know enough about them to hack one up myself.

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#59 2014-12-07 22:05:04

galgot
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Registered: 2014-07-31
Posts: 40

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

cc333 wrote:

galgot: So that's like the first gen of Aluminum PowerBook? I wonder why there's no sound? I got sound on every machine I've tested so far (I think you can update the Apple Audio Extension to version 2.2 or later, as iMic says earlier in this thread, to get sound).

Let's keep testing!

I'd test the Mac Mini, but I only have Intel models (so obviously not doable).

c

Yes , these A1013 are the first Al PBs at 1Ghz , so not really a breakthrough with these smile
Also they use Nvidia GeForce4 440, so maybe this is part of the problem with the thing staying in 256 colours...
I've installed Nvidia extensions today, but not success.

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#60 2014-12-08 06:46:16

blemk
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Registered: 2014-11-09
Posts: 16

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Certainly progress going on yet. I got a few more moments t play with my FW400/FW800 Mac MDDs this weekend. Still appreciating the work in both forums even though the FW800 has little work needed yet as it pretty much 100% functional short of Bluetooth/AirportExtreme.

Not sure I would focus too much on USB 2.0 support unless you plan to do it for the sake of USB 2.0 based storage (flash drives, external disks of various sorts). Chances are, any other USB 2.0 device is not going to have drivers for Mac OS 9 either.

Second, USB 2.0 bandwidth being 480 mbps, FW400 is 80 mbps short of that. Might be higher priority to get FW800 going if you are after storage speed.

802.11g is going to be a biggie.. It keeps me from using the airport extreme card in my fw800 (where I would sooner use a 1gb Ethernet attached wireless bridge which could be 802.11g or better without having mac os involved in the wireless driver/control). This, however, is big for notebooks as wireless is somewhat a given these days for notebooks. Downgrading your wireless card to an 802.11b version of card that is supported by OS 9 and option to some of you? (even though it be slower)

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#61 2014-12-09 01:18:33

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
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Posts: 1,099
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

My solution for that on my OS 9 TiBook was to use a Linksys WGA600N and power it off the FireWire port (yes, you can connect the FireWire power pins directly to the box). Classilla can configure it.

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#62 2014-12-12 14:52:32

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Here's the ATI Drivers for the Mobility Radeon 9200.

https: //app.box.com/s/nl7k7wxmvahmns9kpxpa

Newer iBook extensions are available in the Macintosh ROM 10.2.1r1 "iBook" package, available from here.


The main extensions are ATI Via_A and ATI Via_B. I believe that only these two are required, but I've included the entire bundle anyway in case.

Installation is simple - drag them into the Extensions folder and reboot.

These extensions resolve the phantom display issues on the iBook G4 with the Mobility Radeon 9200 GPU. After installation, the machine will support switching between 256 greys, 256 colours, thousands of colours and millions of colours on the internal display. 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 resolutions are supported.

However these drivers won't resolve the issue of no 2D or 3D hardware acceleration. Adjusting the brightness on the internal display is still not supported, nor is sleep mode. Don't attempt to sleep the machine or close the lid. The computer will switch off the display, but won't be able to wake. You'll have to hard reset the machine. Also set the machine and display sleep sliders to never in the Energy Saver control panel.

External displays still haven't been tested.

Last edited by iMic (2015-01-13 02:04:07)


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#63 2014-12-12 23:53:55

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

You know, I am quite sure that the 9200 series cards are supported in OS 9. Did you install the ATI January 2005 update?

http://gona.mactar.hu/ATI_Mac/

Last edited by ClassicHasClass (2014-12-12 23:54:14)

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#64 2014-12-13 04:36:14

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 883
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

ClassicHasClass wrote:

There's where these drivers were originally from, and these modified drivers are based on the January 2005 update. The Radeon 9200 (ATY, Bugsy) works in Mac OS 9, but the Mobility Radeon 9200 (ATY,Via) doesn't. The hardware may be similar, but more in-depth analysis and tweaking of the extensions is required if so.

That said, since the desktop Radeon 9200 connected to external displays, and the Mobility hooks to an internal with built-in brightness controls and panel information, I suspect that even if the driver did work correctly, it still wouldn't be able to control the display entirely.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#65 2014-12-13 19:37:01

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Ah, right, I blanked on the Mobility part for a second. However, it really should simply be an identification problem -- it's still an R200 part, so the existing driver should "just work" once it's taught what an M9200 is.

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#66 2014-12-13 20:24:25

cc333
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From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 571

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

It would be if we can somhow do something similar to the Nvidia chipset in the 12" PBG4. Are there any existing Nvidia cards similar to that in the 12" G4 which have full OS 9 support?

c

Last edited by cc333 (2014-12-13 21:04:58)


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
Desired: Lisa, Kanga PowerBook G3, Apple IIc, Apple II, Spare parts, etc.

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#67 2014-12-23 21:36:34

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 883
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

After running into repeated issues with the iBook G4, I decided to retire it from Mac OS 9 service. The inability to make the Mobility Radeon 9200 work, the inability to adjust the brightness and the inability to wake from sleep came together to make the final straw for this machine.

We've released the complete system files as an Installation CD compatible with some unsupported models here, and the extremely limited Mobility Radeon 9200 drivers for the iBook G4 are available from this post above.

Back to searching for a Rage 128 iBook G3.


Perhaps the next logical step would be to turn the attention back towards desktops. The Mac Mini seems like a promising prospect once we can determine what holds it back from starting up.


Cheers,

iMic.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#68 2014-12-24 17:56:48

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 883
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Enable Debug Mode

Something useful for Mac OS tweakers. You can get a detailed output of what the computer is doing as it loads the ROM into Open Firmware by enabling the DEBUG flag in Open Firmware, like so:


dev /
0 0 encode-string " AAPL,debug" property

You then need to boot the Mac OS from within Open Firmware. This can be done by issuing a boot command, like:


boot hd:,\\:tbxi

If the OS is on the hard disk drive, or:

boot cd:,\\:tbxi

If the OS is on a CDROM.



This is the kind of output you will receive. The output will likely scroll too fast to read, but it will stop at the point that the startup process is halted if an issue occurs.

photo_1.jpg


This is where it stalls on the Mac Mini - at the hand-off from Open Firmware to the Mac OS.

photo_2.jpg


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#69 2014-12-24 21:31:48

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 883
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

As it turns out, there are a number of options you can enter to enable debugging output on Mac OS.

photo_1a.jpg

You need to enter these as the values in Open Firmware, like so:

2000000 encode-int " AAPL,debug" property

If you want to enable multiple options, then add the values together. Say for example I wanted to enable option 1000000 and 2000000, I would add them together to make 3000000 and use that in the Open Firmware command.


Using this, I was able to enable options 1000000 (Enable the Nanokernel Debugger) and 2000000 (Display the Nanokernel log during boot). Armed with this information, I can see that the Mac Mini is in fact handing over control to the Nanokernel correctly, but it halts the machine during execution.

photo_2a.jpg

It stops with the lines:

Reset system - Into the 68k fire: 0002d032 6806c9e8
VMAllocateMemory - creating area at 0x69000000 00080000
CreateArea [ 69000000 6907ffff ] ID 00170001 placed ... created

For comparison, this is how it looks on the iBook, which does manage to boot successfully to the desktop.

photo_3a.jpg

The next few lines that appear on the iBook after where the Mini would have halted are:

Extend free pool: phys 0x27fae000 virt 0x00000000 count: 1
CPU plugin registered
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fad000 virt 0x00000000 count: 2
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fac000 virt 0x00000000 count: 3
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fab000 virt 0x00000000 count: 4
Extend free pool: phys 0x27faa000 virt 0x00000000 count: 5
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fa9000 virt 0x00000000 count: 6
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fa8000 virt 0x00000000 count: 7
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fa7000 virt 0x00000000 count: 8
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fa6000 virt 0x00000000 count: 9
Legacy VMInit 0003ff00 005720000
Adjusting area 000a0001 to size 3ff00000
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fa5000 virt 0x00000000 count: 10
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fa4000 virt 0x00000000 count: 11
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fa3000 virt 0x00000000 count: 12
Extend free pool: phys 0x27fa2000 virt 0x00000000 count: 13

That's the current progress with the efforts to run Mac OS 9 on the Mac Mini. Mac OS engineers - assemble.


Cheers,

iMic.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#70 2014-12-29 04:12:58

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

My iBook G4/1.33 halts in the same manner (on DO-QUIESCE), so it's probably the same problem because there is probably minimal difference, if any, in the hardware.

On the other hand, since my 1GHz iMac G4 booted with the disc and it's the last generation iMac (USB2), probably every iMac G4 will boot with it.

Still, it would be nice to get a faster laptop than the TiBooks working reliably.

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#71 2014-12-29 06:19:19

cc333
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From: North S.F. Bay Area, CA
Registered: 2014-05-23
Posts: 571

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

As I think I mentioned earlier, I tried on my A1106 1.67 GHz G4, and Mac OS 9 got as far as loading most extension before silently crashing just before the StartupScreen disappears (it didn't freeze on DO-QUIESCE). I'd imagine that it's not too different from a contemporary Mac Mini, so whatever is causing the hangup, could it be related to something other than the system's basic architecture? Maybe it's some errant OpenFirmware property we've overlooked?

Anyway, it seems we've reached a plateau for now, but we're at a good spot, so it's not hopeless (I'd say that OS 9 is 60-70% usable as is on my 12" PowerBook, which is much better than 0%).

Speaking of which, has anybody got an original, 867 MHz 12" PowerBook G4? It's NVIDIA GeForce4 420 Go appears to be derived from the regular GeForce4 MX, which was in some OS 9 compatible Power Macs (such as the DP 1.0 GHz MDD), so enabling full driver support within OS 9 should be somewhat easier.

c

c


Main Macs: Early '09 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 13"
Secondary Macs: Early '08 Mac Pro, Mid '12 MacBook Pro 15"
Playthings: Mac SE/30, 3.0 GHz Mavericks-based HackServe, Many others....
Desired: Lisa, Kanga PowerBook G3, Apple IIc, Apple II, Spare parts, etc.

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#72 2014-12-29 12:59:07

Centris
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From: Denmark
Registered: 2014-12-29
Posts: 9

Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I have a PowerBook G4 1.67 with ddr2 ram. If I boot the Mac OS 9.2.2 Unsupported G4s on it. Then there is a grey screen for some seconds. And then the PowerBook just turn off. If I turn it on and boot into OSX. Then the time is wrong and need to be updated. So I think the Mac OS 9.2.2 Unsupported G4s is resetting my pram battery.

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#73 2014-12-29 14:53:54

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

OK, then I have a theory.

http://www.everymac.com/systems/by_capa … orted.html

All of the Macs that boot reliably so far were Jaguar-generation/early Panther (except the G5, which as previously mentioned has several other problems that will prevent it from booting OS 9). From Sonnet documentation, I know that certain CPU types are not supported until 10.3.5. So the theory I have is that Macs requiring 10.3.5 or higher will NOT boot with this, and non-G5 Macs requiring 10.3.4 or lower SHOULD boot with this.

I used to have a 2004 1.2GHz iBook G4 around and I should look for that to test this theory (its hard drive is busted, but its CD-ROM still worked). The 1.5GHz 17" AlBook should also boot, if my theory is correct.

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#74 2015-01-03 04:01:49

markyb
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From: Bedford, OH USA (216)
Registered: 2014-05-16
Posts: 182
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

Forgive me if this is too far off topic, but, what are your thoughts on using a similar method to boot OS 7.6 on machines that are native to OS 8 or 9 (like the G3 B&W) ?


http://markyb.applefool.com for a list of my computers, my blog, and some random resources.

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#75 2015-01-03 04:54:13

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 883
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Re: Mac OS 9 on Unsupported Hardware

I would expect that System 7.6 would have no handlers for New World machines and would require a Toolbox ROM on the Logic Board. Machines that fall within the Old World classification and run OS 8.0, 8.1 and 8.5 natively offer the best chance as they contain a Toolbox ROM and are more likely to have hardware drivers available that can be tweaked to run on an older system (8.6 onwards used a revised nanokernel).

That doesn't leave that many machines however. Perhaps the Power Macintosh G3 Beige and PowerBook G3, but that's about it.


Of course, I could be mistaken as I haven't personally looked at any of these possibilities in any detail.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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