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#51 2014-12-30 17:51:33

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
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Re: MJ's stuff

Other than the WGS 9150, all of the WGSes I've seen were the same internally as their counterparts, structurally and electronically, and only differed in pack-in software, number of drives and SCSI devices.

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#52 2014-12-30 18:32:03

bbraun
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Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
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Re: MJ's stuff

Huh, my 8500 doesn't have the black plastic.  It's all the white brittle stuff all the way through.  I figured the black plastic was specific to the WGS.

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#53 2014-12-30 18:54:10

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

MJ313 wrote:

I don't believe there are any differences in design between the 8500 and 8550, even after just looking at the exploded view in the service manual. I think the only differences were in storage, drives, cache size and DAT option in the 8550 and standard AV in the 8500 (only optional in the 8550).  Every 8500 I have seen the inside of has had a beige interior structure.

That PMS pigmentation is likely one of the culprits, black is the standard ABS formulation for pipe and fittings and far superior in terms of flexibility and longevity by design. Looks glossy though?

I don't recall if that beige structure was brittle or not.

Infuriatingly so.

I do know that this black plastic interior in the 8550 is actually in really good shape.It's really flexible still and probably the only reason this thing hasn't totally fallen apart. Apple should have made the entire machine out of the stuff smile

Makes me wonder how the MacTV fared in comparison to its FuglyMac cousins?

that note about your 9500 project is both interesting and intriguing... When you 'lost' the case, did you lose it in a special hole, six feet under ground? smile

It was likely sitting upside down full of irreplaceable MacCrud in the storage room when the Tsunami/Whirlpool made huge crashing and sucking sounds. Depth unknown, but hopefully recycled or eBayed by some lucky sonofabitch with a newfound and  massive collection of tools.

But come on now, admit it... you're just *itching* to do some plastics rehab tongue big_smile

I've already torn a new @$$hole down and across most the entire Mac Lineup in my decasing/recasing shenanigans past, now I'm onto more technical endeavors. roll

boxes full of harvested NastyPlast and Sheet Metal components remain fair game for future abuse, however. cool  >

lost cause? bah!

Metaphorically speaking of course. roll big_smile

__________


Back on tangent: I've got a fab Mossy/Wooden Wonder book, what other aircraft docs have you collected along with the Marauder book?

.

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#54 2014-12-31 00:05:05

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

<tangent>

I hadn't thought much of the Mossie until I saw one up close and personal at Warbirds over the Atlantic, VA Beach in May. Then I learned to appreciate the wooden wonder smile  It's quite beautiful. I even got to see the bird fly, in formation with a Spit and Hurricane. The flying mossie is a rare site these days... I am incredibly lucky to have been able to go.

photo4_zpsc6ce7dcd.jpg


Here are some of the books I've read in the recent past smile All good and recommended, if you are into this sort of thing.

In the Hands of Fate - Tale of PBY Catalina pilots during the Japanese invasion of the Pacific Islands in the very early days of WWII. My Dad actually knew one of the pilots, Hawk Barrett, whose flights are documented here.

Great World War II Air Stories - Actually three books in one. Each story has been oft-told (Guy Gibson and the Dambusters, Richard Hillary and Douglas Bader) but each one is worth the time.

A Higher Call - This one has received a lot of press as of late. The 'event' that is so famous is well depicted; however it's the path of the pilots, post-event and well into their later years, that is what makes the book special, imo.

I have a rather large cache of WWII and aviation themed books.  Been an interest of mine for a long time.  smile

</tangent>

Last edited by MJ313 (2014-12-31 00:06:10)

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#55 2014-12-31 01:05:12

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
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Re: MJ's stuff

bbraun wrote:

Huh, my 8500 doesn't have the black plastic.  It's all the white brittle stuff all the way through.  I figured the black plastic was specific to the WGS.

Maybe a different production run? These photos seem to show it. I don't own an 8500, however.

http://computers.popcorn.cx/apple/powermac/8500/

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#56 2014-12-31 01:38:10

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

ClassicHasClass wrote:
bbraun wrote:

Huh, my 8500 doesn't have the black plastic.  It's all the white brittle stuff all the way through.  I figured the black plastic was specific to the WGS.

Maybe a different production run? These photos seem to show it. I don't own an 8500, however.

http://computers.popcorn.cx/apple/powermac/8500/

One day mine will look like that... one day sad

CHC - Do you know what the VLSI chip is in this picture?
http://computers.popcorn.cx/apple/power … 500-07.jpg

I've seen the exact same board/model# that has that chip, and others don't. I have no idea what it's for. Here's one on ebay that's missing the chip.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-APPLE-8 … 3a814b6d30

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#57 2014-12-31 01:42:10

Washerman
Member
Registered: 2014-08-24
Posts: 51

Re: MJ's stuff

MJ313 wrote:
jt wrote:

Are there structural differences between stock and WGS versions of that chassis or was the series shot in black plastic as color coding for the production line? Are all the WGS versions of the 9500 chassis that we've collected or observed molded in that cool/horrible brittle black plastic?

I don't believe there are any differences in design between the 8500 and 8550, even after just looking at the exploded view in the service manual. I think the only differences were in storage, drives, cache size and DAT option in the 8550 and standard AV in the 8500 (only optional in the 8550).  Every 8500 I have seen the inside of has had a beige interior structure. I don't recall if that beige structure was brittle or not. I do know that this black plastic interior in the 8550 is actually in really good shape. It's really flexible still and probably the only reason this thing hasn't totally fallen apart. Apple should have made the entire machine out of the stuff smile

I wonder if Washerman's 8550 is black on the inside... maybe he'll chime in.

that note about your 9500 project is both interesting and intriguing... When you 'lost' the case, did you lose it in a special hole, six feet under ground? smile But come on now, admit it... you're just *itching* to do some plastics rehab tongue big_smile

lost cause? bah!

Actually I vaguely recall it being black inside, but will double check. When I bought it my eyes glazed over at the rust and broken fascia, but at least the WGS wasn't covered in bird p00p like the IICX I bought from the same chap! I have to make a field trip soon to the parents' to find an HDI45 cable, so will pull it out then.

Last edited by Washerman (2014-12-31 01:42:35)

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#58 2014-12-31 01:56:53

LCGuy
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From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-13
Posts: 815

Re: MJ's stuff

Interesting, I had no idea that there were actually 8500's with black internal frames - I saw yours and assumed that it had been painted black.

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#59 2014-12-31 01:59:08

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

LCGuy wrote:

Interesting, I had no idea that there were actually 8500's with black internal frames - I saw yours and assumed that it had been painted black.

Good sir, black lipstick maybe, for the pig that this beast is. big_smile

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#60 2014-12-31 02:00:03

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

Fifty years before radical developments of 15 years spanning 128k and PowerMac G4 releases, Aviation enjoyed the same rapid pace of development, designs built for and tested in the crucible of war.

Gotta love a guy like Geoffrey de Havilland, thinking so far outside the Duralumin and Steel Conventions of the day, that he built just about the most successful, adaptable, highest performing multi-role aircraft of the war, largely of non-strategic materials. Hardly a "boxy" wooden design, the Mosquito was a wicked fast, moulded wooden sculpture in flight, remaining legendary in its deadly beauty to this day. cool

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#61 2014-12-31 15:40:02

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
Website

Re: MJ's stuff

MJ313 wrote:
ClassicHasClass wrote:
bbraun wrote:

Huh, my 8500 doesn't have the black plastic.  It's all the white brittle stuff all the way through.  I figured the black plastic was specific to the WGS.

Maybe a different production run? These photos seem to show it. I don't own an 8500, however.

http://computers.popcorn.cx/apple/powermac/8500/

One day mine will look like that... one day sad

CHC - Do you know what the VLSI chip is in this picture?
http://computers.popcorn.cx/apple/power … 500-07.jpg

I've seen the exact same board/model# that has that chip, and others don't. I have no idea what it's for. Here's one on ebay that's missing the chip.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-APPLE-8 … 3a814b6d30

Unfortunately, I do not. I would suspect something to do with the bus based on its location, but I really don't know.

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#62 2014-12-31 16:56:45

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

ClassicHasClass wrote:

Unfortunately, I do not. I would suspect something to do with the bus based on its location, but I really don't know.

I looked into it a bit more this morning. I think it's a Super I/O chip. It looks really similar to this:
http://www.proselex.net/Documents/ProSe … ration.pdf

I guess that still doesn't help me understand why it's there on some boards and not others though. Not sure if it was redundant in some way? just not sure.

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#63 2015-01-01 04:14:12

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

Popped in to say happy new year!

But I figured nobody would be here, so I thought I'd clean up some gibberish I typed in this window earlier. VLSI is a process and a company that uses said process. The missing chip is an ASIC (c)Apple, so nobody even there knows what was in it by now. You might get some info on the (c)Philips IC if it's a standard chip and I think it might be.

I took a swack at this missing chip riddle. I think the answer is CHRP, which was one of the major goals in development of the Tsunami (first gen PCI) Architecture Machines.

Interesting timeline: search PReP & CHRP

Tsunami coulda, shoulda, woulda done stuff like ISA FDDs and Parallel Ports with those ASICs, some 8500s have 'em, some not, none need 'em.

IOW, the 8500 has the pads for the ICs to implement industry standardization of the PPC platform as planned by the gang of three. But the Steve killed that off along with a lot of other cool stuff as he was taking power  .  .  .


.  .  .  or I could just be guessing wrong again. roll


I had my Burger and a Margarita after work to celebrate, it's an hour until 2015 and I'm late to bed  .  .  .  getting to work by 10AM is like getting up in the middle of the friggin' night to me! yikes

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

_______________________________



.  .  .  Huh? Wha? < Yaaaaawn! > WTF?????? tongue

edit:

Yup, WAGgin' up the wrong tree again. That scrumptious BigAss Bacon Cheesburger ( with their sauce on the bottom and mayo on top, sliced avocado $.79 extra, and an extra order of fries I told the barkeep would even things up when he apologized for the kitchen MUXin' my the Swiss substitution for the really good smoked cheddar  < cholesterol heaven burger > and that adult beverage musta' the belly hard. Apparently, my brain wasn't getting enough blood flow, I was full of s**t and talking out the related orifice for the last time again for last year.

This year I hit the block diagram in the DevNote before work and found the actual difference (that'd be the back-checking of the .TXT above that I'd intended to do before gorging myself at Chili's) The Philips IC is indeed a stock part, the 7187 Video Encoder (NTSC type Video) and the (c)Apple ASIC is the Sixty6 Convolver.

MoBos with Philips Encoder and Sisty6 ASIC pads populated are the Nitro variant with the (revolutionary for the Mac) incredibly powerful (stock HDDs of the day couldn't keep up with the sustained 16MBps throughput requirements for its near broadcast quality 640x480 VidCap.) IC population for Nitro variant only is clearly indicated on the block diagram, not gonna back-check that  .  .  .  it's the middle of the f*****g night! roll

< considers going back again for a do over with Swiss a quadrupled portion of garlic pickles and a second adult beverage with it after work again this year! big_smile  Next amateur night on the roads will be St. Pat's >

Last edited by jt (2015-01-01 22:02:51)

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#64 2015-01-01 13:57:46

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

jt - that's outstanding! Thanks very much for providing so much information that I wasn't able to piece together myself. That's a great answer right there and one that makes a lot of sense. Happy New Year!

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#65 2015-01-02 01:34:50

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

NoPro, bro. I found out I've got a Nitro on my hands here in the process! big_smile


BTW, just tilting that *=^&$&#?^%$&*|* SpindlyPlast Case up to spin out the retaining screws had shards of unrecyclable(?) petrochemical based shit falling off from around the slot openings! roll

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#66 2015-01-02 02:11:31

mcdermd
Member
From: Corvallis, OR
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 965
Website

Re: MJ's stuff

Nitro as in NeXT Nitro?


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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#67 2015-01-02 02:32:31

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

So the board WITH the chips makes the board a Nitro (8500) board... the one without the chips is actually a TNT (75/7600 board) that has all the same fixings, except video-out.

So don't go buying an advertised 8500 board without those chips. You will sorely miss the luxury of dual 640x480 output from the mobo smile

cool

Last edited by MJ313 (2015-01-02 02:44:11)

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#68 2015-01-02 04:24:48

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

Dunno about NeXT, but the word Nitro only gets that one hit in the 7500/8500 DevNote on the block diagram page.

Sixty6 yields several:


Developer Note
Power Macintosh 7500 and
Power Macintosh 8500 Computers

pp.18-22 wrote:

Video Subsystem

The Power Macintosh 7500 and 8500 have a built-in video subsystem that incorporates
the features of the A/V cards used with the earlier Power Macintosh computers and
adds a few enhancements. The video subsystem handles video input and output, mixes
video with computer graphics, and supports a wide variety of video monitors. In
addition, the Power Macintosh 8500 computer supports a second video output stream to
television devices such as VCRs and monitors.

The video subsystem is made up of an interface to the processor bus, 2 MB or 4 MB of
VRAM, a video stream to the computer monitor, a second video stream to the video
output, and an input video stream.

Video Subsystem ICs

The video subsystem is implemented by the following ICs:

__Chaos, a custom IC that provides data bus buffering between the video subsystem and the processor bus

__Control, a custom IC that provides addressing and control for the video subsystem

__RaDACal, a high-performance digital-to-analog converter (DAC) used for the video stream to the monitor

__Sixty6, an RGB-to-YUV converter and convolver for the second video output stream (on the Power Macintosh 8500 computer only)

__a 7187 digital video encoder (DENC) for the second video output stream (on the Power Macintosh 8500 computer only)

__an 8758 analog-to-digital converter (ADC) for the video input stream

__a 7196 digital video decoder and scaler IC (DESC) for the video input stream

__Plan B, a DMA controller for video input data from the 7196 DESC IC

Video Frame Buffer

The video frame buffer is implemented by four VRAM slots, each of which accepts a
1 MB VRAM SIMM. With two SIMMs installed (2 MB VRAM), the video display
supports up to 24 bpp on monitors up to 17 inches and 16 bpp on a 21-inch monitor.
With all four SIMMs installed (4 MB VRAM), the video display supports up to 24 bpp on
all monitors up to 21 inches.

The data path through the video PCI to the VRAM is 64 bits wide. The output data path
from the VRAMs to the RaDACal high-performance DAC is 128 bits wide. The RaDACal
IC provides the analog R, G, and B signals to the monitor. The RaDACal IC also
generates the video timing for the monitor and supports the hardware cursor.

The Sixty6 custom IC and the 7187 DENC IC produce the second video output stream,
which can either mirror the graphics display or display a separate image.

With the full 4 MB of VRAM installed, the frame buffer can support separate
simultaneous displays on the monitor and the second video output stream. With a
second video output stream at 24 bpp, the buffer can simultaneously support up to
16 bpp on a 21-inch monitor. With a second video output stream at 16 bpp, the buffer
can support up to 24 bpp on a 21-inch monitor.

With only 2 MB of VRAM, the computer can support only one display at a time; when
the second video stream is active, the main display shuts off. With the full 4 MB of
VRAM, the graphics monitor remains active at all times.


Video Subsystem

The data path through the video PCI to the VRAM is 64 bits wide. The output data path
from the VRAMs to the RaDACal high-performance DAC is 128 bits wide. The RaDACal
IC provides the analog R, G, and B signals to the monitor. The RaDACal IC also
generates the video timing for the monitor and supports the hardware cursor.
The Sixty6 custom IC and the 7187 DENC IC produce the second video output stream,
which can either mirror the graphics display or display a separate image.
With the full 4 MB of VRAM installed, the frame buffer can support separate
simultaneous displays on the monitor and the second video output stream. With a
second video output stream at 24 bpp, the buffer can simultaneously support up to
16 bpp on a 21-inch monitor. With a second video output stream at 16 bpp, the buffer
can support up to 24 bpp on a 21-inch monitor.
With only 2 MB of VRAM, the computer can support only one display at a time; when
the second video stream is active, the main display shuts off. With the full 4 MB of
VRAM, the graphics monitor remains active at all times.
Video Bus 2
The Control and Chaos ICs provide a separate bus bridge for the video subsystem. The
timing on the video bus is synchronous with the main system bus.
Video Input 2
The video input feature is implemented by the 8758 video ADC IC and the 7196 digital
video decoder and scaler (DESC) IC. The video data can be stored either in the video
display buffer (VRAM) or in an offscreen pixel map in main memory. Video data
transfers are DMA transfers and are controlled by a DBDMA engine in the Plan B IC.
When video input data is sent to the display buffer, it can be clipped with a 1-bit-per-pixel
clip mask using the DBDMA read channel. This mode of data transfer provides a video
play-through mode with clipping of obscured regions and menus as well as simple titles.
When video input data is stored in a pixel map in main memory, software can perform
any required clipping and blending by using the CopyBits
routine in QuickDraw when
moving the pixel map to a visible region of the display. The video input channel
preserves the alpha channel so that software can perform alpha blending.
The Plan B IC provides two DBDMA channels for the 7196 DESC IC: a DBDMA write
channel and a DBDMA read channel. The DBDMA write channel takes data from the
pixel FIFO buffer in the 7196 IC, attaches an appropriate DMA address, and performs a
PCI write operation. The DBDMA read channel reads the 1-bit-per-pixel clip mask from
main memory.
The 7196 DESC IC can also accept video input data from the DAV connector. See the
section “DAV Connector” beginning on page 51.

Second Stream Video Output

In addition to the main video display, the Power Macintosh 8500 computer provides a
second video stream for a television monitor or a VCR. The second video stream can
either duplicate the main display (mirror mode) or display an independent image. With
the full 4 MB of VRAM, the main monitor remains active while the second video stream
is active.

The second video stream is a high-quality interlaced video signal with convolution to
reduce interlace flicker. It supports television monitors using either NTSC or PAL format.

The second video stream is generated by the Sixty6 convolver IC and the 7187 video
DENC IC. The Sixty6 IC converts the video data from RGB color space to YUV color
space and then performs the convolution on the data in YUV color space. The 7187
DENC IC takes square pixels in YUV format from the Sixty6 IC and encodes them into
composite video in either NTSC or PAL format.

Makes even more sense to me now, only the very high end 8500s of the Tsunami architecture series had the Nitro chipset, I see no evidence of provision for it on my 9500.

Nope, no sense lookin' further: MacGurus take on it.

Sounds like the 8500Nitro was the pick of the Tsunami litter. There's a thread about 9500/9600 comparisons elsewhere, now I wonder about 8500/8600 differences besides surplus case cubic for the three missing slots.

Maybe one of the Sound Card Jockeys over yonder might know about this stuff? AFAIK, Real VidCap required a 9500/9600 for better Cards, Sound Cards, RAID Controllers and even more cards in that era. Nitro would have been for dillettantes.

Curiouser and curiouser, Everymac mentions the existence of dual stream 8500s, but ever spec sheet for the '95 8500 and processor speed bump models of '96 say "Please note that single-stream video output is supported by this model, but dual-stream output is not."

Most folks seem to bandy the term "Nitro" about as the code name for or the architecture of the 8500 in general, methinks a lot of BaconBurger production waste byproduct may have been strewn at random about the various "Mac Tech Info Sites," roll

Dunno, mine's got it, gotta see if it runs  .  .  .  after PEx. Project 30 and a whole bunch of other stuff receive needed attention.

Last edited by jt (2015-01-02 04:33:42)

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#69 2015-01-02 05:04:16

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

MJ313 wrote:

So the board WITH the chips makes the board a Nitro (8500) board... the one without the chips is actually a TNT (75/7600 board) that has all the same fixings, except video-out.

Sounds about right if the terms are actually applied correctly, which seems doubtful. From my reading, it seemed like Tsunami might be the code name for all new variants in the PCI Wave of development, which might itself have been Tsunami. Dunno, you seem to get a variety of code names for just about everything Apple Developmental from the lists of the friggin' things. Is "Nitro" as rare an occurrence of a "Code Name" in a DevNote as it seems like it might be to me?

So don't go buying an advertised 8500 board without those chips. You will sorely miss the luxury of dual 640x480 output from the mobo smile

no chips = no dual port video, but who's really got an NTSC or PAL "Monitor" in today's high def world and who'd really wanna see it anyway? A cheap VidCard gives you an extended desktop with mo betta pixels on the playing field. I wonder how the VidCap subsystems developed, I'll bet this wasn't one whole heck of a lot better than VideoVision Studio NuBus from several years before.  Back then, bandwidth limitations kept the "Monitor" hooked up to the VidCap Card's backplane, never hitting the main system bus. Nitro would be a whole lot more economical, easier overall and display running off off the Mobo due to the bandwidth increase presented by the move to PCI, but you'd still need something on the order of the VideoVisionStudio JackHammer/Fast Wide Controller Card/SCSI Raid Box setup to make use of an 8500/Nitro for anything but small clips by my read.

Don't remember where, but I saw info on tweaked/modded IDE solo drives developed for the purpose, but we're still talking a good percentage of the 8500's sticker price to set it up to match VidCap form the IIfx/Quadra eras. But the POS (percentage of sticker) for VidCap on those systems tended toward approaching or exceedinged unity. neutral

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#70 2015-01-02 19:25:15

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
Website

Re: MJ's stuff

Very interesting. I mostly deal with the 7300, which is a 75/7600 with no video in/out circuitry at all (except /chaos/control, which is the internal video).

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#71 2015-01-05 13:36:10

Washerman
Member
Registered: 2014-08-24
Posts: 51

Re: MJ's stuff

So my WGS does have a black core like yours. Pics of the rust bucket are in my machine thread big_smile

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#72 2015-01-13 01:41:14

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

It works!!

I received the internal power cable from Max today and plugged it in... swapped in the G3 from my 7600 and the beast lives!

Hopefully I'll finish it all up tomorrow smile

Very happy with this working smile

DSC03887_zpsbf933e18.jpg

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#73 2015-01-13 01:43:06

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,099
Website

Re: MJ's stuff

Cool!

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#74 2015-01-13 22:21:01

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

Well, it's been a long road.

She's done.

She might not have the looks. But she's got a great personality big_smile


This is, hands down, the quirkiest machine I've owned. I love it.  LOFL  smile


DSC03890_zps0962a169.jpg

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#75 2015-01-13 22:54:56

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

Me likes quirky too! NICE!

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