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#26 2014-12-12 01:51:18

bbraun
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Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
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Re: MJ's stuff

Well, actually, after I got that working, I tried to do a PCB layout with 4 of those ROM chips, one for each byte lane (4x8bit ROMs for 32bits).
There were a couple problems.  For one, the 030 PDS connector is big and 4 32pin DIP ROMs are big.  The combination being bigger than what most non-commercial PCB layout software allows.  The second, and the real killer, was that's a lot of wires to route, and hardware isn't my specialty.
But, not all was lost.  I used the newly discovered knowledge of declaration roms (tools and writeup here) to write a declrom for MESS (the nb_image ROM) with a variant of the ROMdisk driver to allow the use of minivmac hdd images and whatnot.  And it got me into doing some PCB design, nothing fancy, but I've done some small ones.

The goal was for it to be an 030 proto-board of sorts.  One of the problems with developing nubus/pds cards for use with Slot Manager is it has to have a valid declaration ROM, otherwise the slot manager unmaps the address space.  So, the idea was to have this board with some ROM space, do some basic address decoding to have the board show up in slot space somewhere with a signal to indicate when the board is being addressed, and then a bunch of pins for easier prototyping of projects.

Anyway, the routing proved too much for me at the time, so I put it in the parts box, and moved on to other things.

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#27 2014-12-12 06:28:29

jt
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From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

Yeah, protoboarding as we know it these days is very limited in scope from what I've seen. PCB Design Software licensing limits projects to small layouts. Fixed PCB specs are designed for easily nesting them for batch processing, cutting them up and then shipping them hither thither and yon to the various customers.

It's deja-vu all over again, same shit, different century. tongue Wake up and smell the VLSI! smile

Dad was a boffin at IBM's Glendale Labs, so I grew up with LSI and VLSI textbooks knocking around the house. I swear that poring over them as artwork haywired my brain so that I can't make heads or tails out of a schematic, but the rivers of traces flow smoothly through my mind.

Back around late 1989, I cut the final revision in RubyLith for all the layers of the three, two-sided PCBs on my plotter.  I weeded the film and then drove the roll of them across the Hudson to a local fab over in Jersey. They reduced my line art to actual size on a process camera.

My brother's friend does PCB design professionally, my friend  from church is in Texas all the time, he supports his local company's layout software at Intel. I can probably wrangle a bit of help when the time comes if needed. Meanwhile, even the IIsi is only 3x the speed of the circuits I prototyped in the time spanning the IIci and IIfx releases. I've got the prototyping covered, PCB design software and ProtoBoard production size limits be damned! wink

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#28 2014-12-27 15:28:36

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

Well, this one isn't really a conquest... more of a rescue. This is an absolute dog!

I've wanted an 8500 for a long time. Which is funny because they are notoriously terrible cases. What can I say? I like the shape. And it was also my first real mac. I designed my first web page on an 8500 in college and also got into creating/editing some videos, using photoshop, playing network games, etc. I have fond memories of it. But I know they are terrible and I wasn't real interested in spending much money on one when I can put $ to better use... like FloppyEmu or recaps! lol. So I got this wreck for $0.00 It looked like it had a dive down a set of stairs. The nice thing is that the logic board, memory, cache and CPU card were all still there. I think whoever stripped it of parts couldn't figure out how to open it, and just wrenched it about, finally giving up.

Here's the WGS 8550. Something like 50% of the tabs were broken off already... and what wasn't broken off, I broke off stripping the thing down. All of the shielding has detached. There's heavy corrosion from something on the bottom of the case. It's worse under the shielding.  The bezel is cracked... the faceplate tabs are trashed too.

DSC03776_zps226d1fc3.jpg

I think that's a power actuator there.

DSC03779_zpsf1a8efcd.jpg

But I'll rebuild it as a labor of love.  I will call it the GreatGorillaGlueWorkGroupServerExtraordinaire™ or GGGWGSE™ for short. tongue

DSC03790_zps62b7e238.jpg

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#29 2014-12-27 16:53:00

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,105
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Re: MJ's stuff

I'm sure any rebuild you do will improve on that hideous case.

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#30 2014-12-27 18:38:02

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

I've been working on it more today and it's just a godawful horrible case.  Just looking at parts they snap.

More Gorilla Glue than plastic when I am done with it.

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#31 2014-12-27 21:34:11

mcdermd
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From: Corvallis, OR
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 970
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Re: MJ's stuff

Will gorilla glue hold up to the pressures of being latched/unlatched? Or is this a get it back together and never take it apart again sort of endeavor?


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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#32 2014-12-27 21:51:28

bbraun
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Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
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Re: MJ's stuff

Fill the entire case with non-conductive epoxy?  That seems like a good plan for these cases!

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#33 2014-12-27 22:13:32

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

mcdermd wrote:

Will gorilla glue hold up to the pressures of being latched/unlatched? Or is this a get it back together and never take it apart again sort of endeavor?

The gorilla glue holds up to everything I've thrown at it big_smile I am putting it anywhere there are non moving parts that don't need to really ever be separated. The back panel parts, the metal shields... all is gorilla glued. I used acetone for some of the ABS pieces that I could puzzle piece together. I made some new stays for the PCI retention holder and epoxied them in. The originals had broken off.

The little ABS PCI holder tabs were broken off... I acetone'd them back in. I don't think I will be pushing them up and down very often, if ever. The thing that is going to be the trickiest is the power actuator, that is in 6 pieces. I may need to just build a new one if repairing it fails.

Note, all of the black plastic in the above pics is in great health. Very flexible still-- it's just the beige plastics that are falling to pieces. I have seen some 8500s with all beige interiors... I wonder if this black is different in any way.

bbraun- the thought crossed my mind to just dunk the thing smile

Everything that is clamped in this picture is clamped because of drying and expanding gorilla glue. The heavy book is there because I am gorilla gluing the black inner plastic 'guts' to the base. No taking this apart. smile Floppy faceplate bezel won't be coming off either.

DSC03810_zps1701a3ed.jpg

Last edited by MJ313 (2014-12-27 22:34:31)

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#34 2014-12-28 03:07:04

ScutBoy
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Registered: 2014-05-25
Posts: 158

Re: MJ's stuff

That's....devotion to getting that guy back up and running smile

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#35 2014-12-28 03:39:46

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

ScutBoy wrote:

That's....devotion to getting that guy back up and running smile

lol! I'm trying man... everytime I think I fix something I break something else!

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#36 2014-12-28 09:02:29

mcdermd
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From: Corvallis, OR
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 970
Website

Re: MJ's stuff

Damned Spindler plastic!


Daily Drivers: 27" iMac 2.8 GHz Quad-Core i7 (Late 2009), 21.5" iMac 2.7GHz Quad-Core i5 (Late 2013), 11" Macbook Air 1.6 GHz i5 (Mid-2011)
See the restored heroes here.

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#37 2014-12-28 22:20:20

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

OK, I got Humpty Dumpty, I mean, the power actuator back together again.  First problem was finding all the pieces and getting the non-moving shattered parts Acetone'd. The retention arms had lost all flexibility so I cut them out and built new ones with styrene. New styrene isn't as flexible as ABS (it's ABS without the AB, right?). But it sure is more flexible then old ABS.

I reinforced the broken bendy parts with epoxy+shaped styrene. Then I reattached the S-curve with epoxy. This is probably the part that will break first (maybe tomorrow! lol!). I'll let you know when it fails. But it is holding up well now and works to push in the power button on the LB.

Flashback:
DSC03779_zpsf1a8efcd.jpg

Today:
DSC03839_zps433726c6.jpg

DSC03840_zps0b589ea9.jpg

DSC03837_zps2b30767b.jpg

DSC03838_zps2674a2e3.jpg

DSC03836_zps63d488a6.jpg

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#38 2014-12-29 00:21:32

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,105
Website

Re: MJ's stuff

It's a beautiful job, and a crying shame to be wasted on what is no doubt the worst case Apple ever made.

However, it's a WGS, so I'll overlook that. smile

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#39 2014-12-29 00:46:49

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

ClassicHasClass wrote:

It's a beautiful job, and a crying shame to be wasted on what is no doubt the worst case Apple ever made.

However, it's a WGS, so I'll overlook that. smile

I totally get that this is nuts smile  The fact it's a WGS is helping me stay the course big_smile

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#40 2014-12-29 03:32:42

Washerman
Member
Registered: 2014-08-24
Posts: 51

Re: MJ's stuff

Nice work, your plastics restoration is an inspiration! Are you going to treat the rust? and if so, please do share your method big_smile

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#41 2014-12-29 13:32:26

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

Washerman wrote:

Nice work, your plastics restoration is an inspiration! Are you going to treat the rust? and if so, please do share your method big_smile

You know, the corrosion wasn't actually rust-- it was more like some sort of battery acid or cap goo from a failed power supply? I am not quite sure... it cleaned off with dish soap and a scouring pad. smile

And thanks for your interest in the project! I can understand why so many people hate these segway macs (post 68k, pre SJ return). They are just so poor in quality. But they span such a long range of years, that I bet there are a few people out there who have an odd affection for one model or another. Maybe they saved up all summer for a Q605 or PM7100. Maybe those machines are still around and falling apart now. I'll leave the electronics to the skilled pros, but with some practice, a few tools and some styrene, anyone could fix the plastics if they wanted to. smile

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#42 2014-12-29 14:11:30

Washerman
Member
Registered: 2014-08-24
Posts: 51

Re: MJ's stuff

MJ313 wrote:
Washerman wrote:

Nice work, your plastics restoration is an inspiration! Are you going to treat the rust? and if so, please do share your method big_smile

You know, the corrosion wasn't actually rust-- it was more like some sort of battery acid or cap goo from a failed power supply? I am not quite sure... it cleaned off with dish soap and a scouring pad. smile

And thanks for your interest in the project! I can understand why so many people hate these segway macs (post 68k, pre SJ return). They are just so poor in quality. But they span such a long range of years, that I bet there are a few people out there who have an odd affection for one model or another. Maybe they saved up all summer for a Q605 or PM7100. Maybe those machines are still around and falling apart now. I'll leave the electronics to the skilled pros, but with some practice, a few tools and some styrene, anyone could fix the plastics if they wanted to. smile

Ah I was thinking that the rest of the shielding looked pretty good big_smile It is clearly in good hands!

As with most I love old computers (not just Macs, for eg I picked up a Thinkpad 760CD today) and it's great to see them in use still/again. Many members here just blow me away with their skill and knowledge. My experience is more of the end user, but you are right, it's a nostalgia trip with this era of Macs. About twelve years ago I owned a 9500 and that was a slightly testing experience but it had a noble look about its design, and massive expandability. I do miss that computer!

So I picked up a WGS8550/132 for $1.50 a while back and it is in a much worse state than yours. Busted power switch (just into two bits), broken fascia so faceplates don't clip in, and rusted shielding from its long stay in a shed. To top it off someone has drilled a hole through the front of it sad ever the optimist though, I have a G4/700 upgrade for it tongue will post pics once it makes it to the top of the project roster wink

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#43 2014-12-29 14:47:52

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,105
Website

Re: MJ's stuff

MJ313 wrote:
Washerman wrote:

Nice work, your plastics restoration is an inspiration! Are you going to treat the rust? and if so, please do share your method big_smile

You know, the corrosion wasn't actually rust-- it was more like some sort of battery acid or cap goo from a failed power supply? I am not quite sure... it cleaned off with dish soap and a scouring pad. smile

And thanks for your interest in the project! I can understand why so many people hate these segway macs (post 68k, pre SJ return). They are just so poor in quality. But they span such a long range of years, that I bet there are a few people out there who have an odd affection for one model or another. Maybe they saved up all summer for a Q605 or PM7100. Maybe those machines are still around and falling apart now. I'll leave the electronics to the skilled pros, but with some practice, a few tools and some styrene, anyone could fix the plastics if they wanted to. smile

It really depends on the Mac, though. The Outrigger originated from this generation as well (72/73/75/7600, desktop beige G3), which IMHO is one of Apple's best cases.

Also, to be fair, the 8500's Waterloo of an enclosure actually originated with the Quadra 800, which is a delightful machine and just as frustrating to work inside.

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#44 2014-12-29 15:20:27

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

It really depends on the Mac, though. The Outrigger originated from this generation as well (72/73/75/7600, desktop beige G3), which IMHO is one of Apple's best cases.

Also, to be fair, the 8500's Waterloo of an enclosure actually originated with the Quadra 800, which is a delightful machine and just as frustrating to work inside.

Those are all very good points-- I do like the outrigger case as well and it's much easier to work in then the 800/8xx0 case. But those cases suffer from the same failing plastics today, too. I should have been clearer-- I wasn't trying to say the case designs themselves were all poor quality from that era. My bad there. At the time, the 'quality' of the plastics might have seemed fine because the ABS was in top form, but today it seems abysmal. I guess the argument can be made that computers weren't designed to last decades anyway. smile

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#45 2014-12-29 16:41:53

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

Washerman wrote:

So I picked up a WGS8550/132 for $1.50 a while back and it is in a much worse state than yours. Busted power switch (just into two bits), broken fascia so faceplates don't clip in, and rusted shielding from its long stay in a shed. To top it off someone has drilled a hole through the front of it sad ever the optimist though, I have a G4/700 upgrade for it tongue will post pics once it makes it to the top of the project roster wink

That's really funny you have the same machine! and that it's messed up too! lol. Gorilla glue man, gorilla glue smile If your shielding has popped off the same as mine, or if it's barely hanging on, then just remove it. Clean it up and maybe rustoleum on one side that faces out?... then rough up both mating surfaces, metal and plastic, with some sandpaper. Wipe down with a damp cloth. Then gorilla glue! Clamp! Done! I've tried a bunch of ways to keep that shielding on. This was what finally worked! smile

I'd love to see some pics in your thread of your wreck. That G4 would be a good reason to get it back together. I think I'll pull the G3 400 from my 7600 and throw it in mine, if all goes well.

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#46 2014-12-29 18:18:35

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

cool Love the project and the Widowmaker too.

MJ, you have impeccable tastes and it would seem a penchant for lost causes and masochistic rehabs/mods, I knew there was something about you I liked! lol

Last edited by jt (2014-12-29 18:21:29)

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#47 2014-12-29 21:30:52

ClassicHasClass
Member
From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,105
Website

Re: MJ's stuff

I've got my systems indoors, I don't smoke, and they're not exposed to direct sunlight. The machines that I've owned personally most of their lives seem to have done well, it's just that the hoi polloi don't value them the way we do. smile

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#48 2014-12-29 22:41:23

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

Washerman wrote:

So I picked up a WGS8550/132 for $1.50 a while back and it is in a much worse state than yours. Busted power switch (just into two bits), broken fascia so faceplates don't clip in, and rusted shielding from its long stay in a shed. To top it off someone has drilled a hole through the front of it sad ever the optimist though, I have a G4/700 upgrade for it tongue will post pics once it makes it to the top of the project roster wink

I just called Operator Headgap to see if they had any bezels. Not only did they have bezels, that have effing power actuators! $5!!!

So if you don't want to rebuild yours, just give them a call LOL.

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#49 2014-12-30 16:32:01

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,407

Re: MJ's stuff

Are there structural differences between stock and WGS versions of that chassis or was the series shot in black plastic as color coding for the production line? Are all the WGS versions of the 9500 chassis that we've collected or observed molded in that cool/horrible brittle black plastic?

I'm following your progress with more than casual curiosity/interest because a bare 9500 skeleton is the target home for the PEx-in-a-Drawer. Lost the Case/fmain Bezel long ago when I kept the (exposed) MoBo in there, the 9600 PSU sticks out the side a ways. tongue

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#50 2014-12-30 17:35:38

MJ313
Member
Registered: 2014-09-23
Posts: 498

Re: MJ's stuff

jt wrote:

Are there structural differences between stock and WGS versions of that chassis or was the series shot in black plastic as color coding for the production line? Are all the WGS versions of the 9500 chassis that we've collected or observed molded in that cool/horrible brittle black plastic?

I don't believe there are any differences in design between the 8500 and 8550, even after just looking at the exploded view in the service manual. I think the only differences were in storage, drives, cache size and DAT option in the 8550 and standard AV in the 8500 (only optional in the 8550).  Every 8500 I have seen the inside of has had a beige interior structure. I don't recall if that beige structure was brittle or not. I do know that this black plastic interior in the 8550 is actually in really good shape. It's really flexible still and probably the only reason this thing hasn't totally fallen apart. Apple should have made the entire machine out of the stuff smile

I wonder if Washerman's 8550 is black on the inside... maybe he'll chime in.

that note about your 9500 project is both interesting and intriguing... When you 'lost' the case, did you lose it in a special hole, six feet under ground? smile But come on now, admit it... you're just *itching* to do some plastics rehab tongue big_smile

lost cause? bah!

Last edited by MJ313 (2014-12-30 17:36:14)

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