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#26 2015-06-29 20:39:51

Eudimorphodon
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Registered: 2014-09-02
Posts: 525

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

Ditto on "other vintage". I feel the need to blather about my PETs.


Flap Different.

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#27 2015-06-29 22:34:05

mcdermd
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From: Corvallis, OR
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Posts: 991
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

TheWhiteFalcon wrote:

Pre-Jobs and Jobs-era PPC stuff. Ideally you could say Old World/New World but that's not very new user friendly, if that's a concern, and the overlap would be an issue since OW stuff hung around until 1999.

User friendly: "rainbow/no rainbow" aka "beige/not beige"


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#28 2015-06-29 23:00:42

TheWhiteFalcon
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Registered: 2015-04-27
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

True enough! big_smile

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#29 2015-07-01 17:36:47

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 916
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

So, here is what we have so far.

### Community Forums ###

Community News & Discussion
Front Bar
Members' Machines
Buy, Sell & Trade

### Technical Forums ###

Tech Talk <working title, general technical discussion>
Knowledge Base <working title, common FAQ topics and information can go here>
Hacks & Modifications
Software & Operating Systems
Peripherals & Accessories

### Model-Specific Forums ###

Apple I, II & III
Macintosh & Lisa *
Quadra, Centris & Macintosh II *
Performa & LC *
Power Macintosh *
iMac & Power Mac *
PowerBook, iBook & Portables *
Other *
Early Intel <possible addition depending on demand>
Other Vintage <other manufacturers vintage computer models>

* Forums possibly subject to consolidation or alteration.


Personally I like some of our current Macintosh model forums like Macintosh & Lisa, iMac & Power Mac and PowerBook, iBook & Portables, but there's a lot of mix-and-match and product overlap in Quadra, Centris & Macintosh II, Performa & LC and Power Macintosh because of Apple's convoluted product lines of the era.

The Other forum name does clash a little with Other Vintage - lets avoid confusion there if we can. Perhaps we could merge the two since the Other forum seems to be fairly inactive?


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#30 2015-07-01 21:43:09

markyb
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From: Aurora, OH (330)
Registered: 2014-05-16
Posts: 185
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

Just throw away all of those confusing model categories and have

Apple I, II, III

Macintosh & Lisa
Platinum, beige, and a few black ones. 68k or Power Macintosh, striped Apples.

iMac & Power Mac
No beige here, only solid Apples.

PowerBook, iBook & Portables
If it folds, it belongs here.




In addition to the other non-specific categories, obviously

Last edited by markyb (2015-07-01 21:44:17)


http://markyb86.weebly.com for some packs of old macintosh wallpapers, desktop patterns, windows wallpapers, sound files, etc.

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#31 2015-07-03 15:43:42

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
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Posts: 916
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

I'd be curious to hear from some of the experts around here as well. From a technical standpoint (logic board or machine similarities, common issues and faults, compatibility with software and devices, etc.) - how would you best group models into a few categories?

I'll sit down at some point and draft something up.

We still have some details to work out, so feedback and ideas are still welcome of course. I'm thinking a gradual rollout of changes may be better than taking the site offline to reorganise everything.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#32 2015-07-03 16:31:02

jt
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From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,435

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

markyb wrote:

Just throw away all of those confusing model categories and have

Apple I, II, III

Macintosh & Lisa
Platinum, beige, and a few black ones. 68k or Power Macintosh, striped Apples.

iMac & Power Mac
No beige here, only solid Apples.

PowerBook, iBook & Portables
If it folds, it belongs here.

Yes! KISS! Substitute "Rainbow" for "striped" and that gets my vote! Much better than:

iMic wrote:
  • 68k Desktops

  • 68k Notebooks

  • PowerPC OldWorld Desktops

  • PowerPC OldWorld Notebooks

  • PowerPC NewWorld Desktops

  • PowerPC NewWorld Notebooks

because: IMO, the latter four would be the kind of distinctions folks join up to learn, assuming they know already or can be bothered to divine seems counterproductive to me.

Other Vintage ++

I'm still liking 'fritter's Other Tech because the kind of folks who are into Vintage Macs are into all kinds of vintage crap. I DESPISE tendencies to tell members "where to go" should they post or ask something mgmt. considers off topic, most especially when incredible amounts of OT PC/Windows crap/propaganda winds up plastered everywhere.

Speed Shop/Aftermarket Upgrades/Performance  .  .  . Too many Accelerator/Overclocking etc. topics wind up lost in the model specific forums elsewhere. Even more such topics wind up buried in the Lounge, which is really annoying. Moving anything posted that's remotely generic/cross-model applicable into a single forum seems like a good idea to me.

Peripherals should definitely be a standalone forum for discussion of printers, scanners, external storage, etc.

Classic Vintage Networking?

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#33 2015-07-03 16:47:23

bbraun
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Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

So is this the current consensus?

    ### Community Forums ###

    Community News & Discussion
    Front Bar
    Members' Machines
    Buy, Sell & Trade

    ### Technical Forums ###

    Tech Talk
    Knowledge Base
    Hacks & Modifications
    Software & Operating Systems
    Peripherals & Accessories

    ### Model-Specific Forums ###

    Apple I, II & III
    Striped (Rainbow) Apple Macs
    Solid Apple Macs
    Early Intel
    Other Vintage

Is there a need for a Tech Talk forum outside the Front Bar?  I'd kind of be inclined to leave that out at least for the first pass, and add it if needed.
My idea for the Knowledge Base is it's where "stickies" would usually go.  I'm thinking TheWhiteFalcon's thread on OS versions and OS9 on unsupported hardware would be good candidates.  As such, it's kind of a curated forum where new topics don't get created there, but rather threads that turn out to be good reference material and FAQ questions for new users would get moved there by mods.

This general layout seems to be well received so far, I haven't seen any major objections.  It'll undoubtedly be an iterative process to refine both the forums and how the forums are used, but there's no time like the present to get started!

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#34 2015-07-03 16:53:07

jt
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From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,435

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

Clones? Fascinating NuBus-PCI Architecture/Innovation area of discussion. The contrasts with Apple products ate truly amazing  .  .  .

.  .  .  lump CHRP in there too?

Newton?

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#35 2015-07-03 16:56:33

bbraun
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Registered: 2014-05-29
Posts: 1,064
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

For the overwhelming number of CHRP posts we've got that need homes?

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#36 2015-07-03 17:02:30

jt
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From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,435

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

LOL! tongue

Outbound/Laser 128 etc. would be included in the proposed clones category.

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#37 2015-07-03 17:33:32

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 916
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

jt wrote:

Much better than:

iMic wrote:
  • 68k Desktops

  • 68k Notebooks

  • PowerPC OldWorld Desktops

  • PowerPC OldWorld Notebooks

  • PowerPC NewWorld Desktops

  • PowerPC NewWorld Notebooks

That was a shocking idea. We'd never have done it. Even I cringe at the thought.

We've settled on the idea of having an Other Vintage forum. Lock that one in. Still coming to a verdict on Early Intel but it's close to being approved provided there are no reasons not to have one. I wouldn't want to expand the focus out too much but an exception can surely be made there.

I'm fond of the current separation of models because it draws lines between each distinct product family. I can look at it and know exactly where something should be posted or where to look. I can filter searches between models, so I can choose to search for "hard drive" specifically in the Quadra, Centris & Macintosh II forums and know I'll be receiving results for "hard drive" that are applicable only to those three product families. A search within "Rainbow Apple" would return results for machines across 68k and PowerPC, IDE and SCSI, Desktop and Portable and so forth. It consolidates the forum index, but it makes sorting of information harder.


These are good ideas in this thread. I'm only concerned about the possibility of implementing sweeping changes only to discover later that we missed something. A simple forum index is good, but clear sections for organising discussions and information are great too. One could argue that the current system is flawed too though. A Power Mac 6100 is also a Performa 6100, so where do you search for information on that model? That needs to be resolved.

It's primarily the middle three - Quadra, Centris & Macintosh II, Performa & LC and Power Macintosh - that need to be revised. Thanks Spindler. I'll start breaking models out into families and seeing where the overlap is.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#38 2015-07-03 18:40:39

ClassicHasClass
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From: Electron Alley
Registered: 2014-05-26
Posts: 1,117
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

bbraun wrote:

For the overwhelming number of CHRP posts we've got that need homes?

+1

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#39 2015-07-03 21:13:12

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 916
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

This should help this discussion somewhat. These are the documents from ThinkClassic showing an overview of the Model-Specific forums and which ones are currently overlapping.

For a quick read, I recommend you take a look at the Model - Specific Overlap document. It shows exactly what models overlap between forums, what forums are overlapping and some proposed fixes.

https://app.box.com/s/au9201e2v432x1zrve3nvg9yict57yfb (87.1KB PDF)


If you want a more in-depth read, then take a look at the Model - Specific Overview document. It contains every Apple desktop, notebook and server computer ever made (excluding Intel) and what forums currently serve these models. Models that are currently fine are listed in Green and models that are overlapping are shown as Red.

https://app.box.com/s/glpqv7y16wsdvw66qwum2j4y6fmbq69h (105.4KB PDF)


The Model - Specific Overlap document paints a clear picture of our problem. Every Macintosh Performa model ever made was based on another Macintosh model. If we abolished the Performa forum and let the other model forums include equivalent Performa models, we can reduce the list of overlapping models to only four - all of them LC / Quadras.

We could then consolidate Quadra, Centris, Macintosh II & LC together into a unified forum (likely with a better name) and resolve the overlap issue completely.

Take a look.


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#40 2015-07-03 21:32:14

Scott Baret
Member
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 182

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

How about this...

Let's put the Compacts and LCs together, then group the IIs, Quadras, Centrises, and Old World PPCs in another forum. All Performa equivalents will be together with their respective base model.

Why do this? The LCs are architecturally similar to the Classic series. Think about it...

LC II = Color Classic = Classic II
LC III = LC 520 (still an AIO so worth lumping together with the compacts, plus the boards actually swap with the CC)
LC III+ = LC 550 = Color Classic II
LC 475 = LC 575
LC 630 = LC 580

The only overlap here is the 475 and 630 sold as Quadras. That being said, the case design of the Q605 is different from the LC475 and the 630 rarely comes up in LC form, so just sort of let them go wherever.

More reasons to lump the LCs and Compacts together:

A. LCs were usually sold with smaller monitors and were quite compact in size themselves.

B. The LC series shares a common PDS, and it shares it with the popular Color Classic models. Note that none of these models are all that expandable, whereas the II, Quadra, etc typically had more than one slot. (There are exceptions, of course).

C. A lot of LC models were AIOs, and some novices may group them with compacts.

D. Historically, it has been done before. When Low End Mac had the Compact Macs email list, the LC and LCII were considered "on topic" because of their similarity to the Classic II and Color Classic.

The one concern would be the Mac TV. It's essentially an odd duck model (32MHz chip is comparable to the IIvx of all things; the 550 had a 33MHz) but it fits the same form factor as the LC 500s. Most people seem to know to put it with AIOs and LCs, but what about a novice who bought one at a yard sale and didn't know much about it, especially since the 500s aren't as common on the used market as they used to be?

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#41 2015-07-03 21:44:19

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 916
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

Grouping the LCs into the Macintosh & Lisa forum is an interesting idea. I had actually thought about separating them out as "Macintosh II & LC" and "Quadra & Centris" but as you've mentioned, there are some architectural similarities between some compact models like the Color Classic and the LC, not to mention the AIO element.

I said above that only four models would overlap - it's actually two. The Quadra 605 / LC 475 and Quadra 630 / LC 630 (four names, but two machines). Differences in the case or the hardware would be enough to differentiate those models and solve the overlap. Even if this isn't possible, it's literally two models of overlap instead of the incredibly long list we have with Performas at the moment. It would seriously clean up the model-specific forums.

The "Other" forum shouldn't be going away. We still like that small dedicated area for rarer models, prototypes and clones. Machines like the Network Server and Twentieth Anniversary Mac go there, and if need be the Macintosh TV could as well - or we could just include it with wherever the LCs end up since they're already quite similar in form factor and electronics.

Starting to feel like we're on the home stretch now, finally. big_smile


Resident Professor of Alternative Methodology
Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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#42 2015-07-03 22:10:21

TheWhiteFalcon
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Registered: 2015-04-27
Posts: 504

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

Really the only difference with the MacTV is the board and TV board, and even the logic board isn't that special. Throwing it with the LC's is fine.

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#43 2015-07-04 19:24:28

Schmoburger
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From: Australia
Registered: 2015-04-21
Posts: 281
Website

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

I would be inclined to make a few seperate categories so thigs are easy to find and non-confusing, but not to the point of there being a thousand redundant subfora. So basically everything from the original Mac up to the last 60x-based PowerMacs in one category, with similar machine-specific categories to what we have but maybe simplify it to say Compacts (monochrome), Desktops (68k) being all inclusive of desktops and AIO's, Mac II's, LC's, Q's, C's, CC, Performas etc, Desktops (PPC) covering all AIO and desktop boxes with 60x processors including PPC UnderPerformas, and Portables (PPC and 68k). This leaves a place for everything and everything in its place and is fairly idiotproof and unconfusing. If one wanted to, I guess a distinction could be made further between say NuBus (higher end) and PDS-only (LC and Performa) 68k machines, and say early Nubus-based Powermacs and later PCI-based machines, but that is still a fairly redundant distinction I guess and will get bloaty rather quickly if we overthink it.

Obviously so as not to alienate anyone, then we have a G3/4/5  and maybe Intel? category... Apples Jobs era product matrix makes his a simple excercise. Just  have a forum for Early desktops G3's (DT, MT, AIO), a forum for Late Powermac desktops that encompasses G3/4/5 towers and the Cube (and maybe XServe racks if need be), a section for the consumer level G3/4/5 desktops ie the iMac in all its PPC encarnations, the eMac, and the G4 Mini, and a single section for all G-PPC portables... iClams, iceBooks, G4 iceBook, Powerbook G3's including Wallstreet and Kanga, Ti, Al. Anything more than that would seem redundant. Now dependiing upon how we wish to categorise the 1,1 Intel machines they may possibly fit here... I guess realistically a section for Desktop Intels (iMac, Mini, and MacPro), and a section for MacBooks would suffice... if we really wanted we could at this current time compress that down to a single Intel forum but that is possibly a little short-sighted. That being said, as we are primarily about old old Macs, that shortsightedness may be warrented.

Now obviously I have not yet mentioned the non-Mac stuff... This would possibly be another third category and more a "non-classic-mac" sort of deal. In here maybe have a section for the "classic" Apple I/II variants, then it would seem appropriate to possibly stick the IIgs and Lisa in a section of there own as they are kind of a pseudo-Mac that arent quite a Mac but are definitely more than an Apple. I know that 'Fritter has traditionally been more of a stomping ground for the Apple II crowd, however there are enough of us here to warrant having them represented given that we arent by title specifically a Mac forum. Now this would possibly seem a more appropriate place to stick an Intel Mac forum were we to compress all Macbooks, MacPro's, IntelMinis and InteliMacs into a single forum as a casual affair. And as mentioned above there are many of us here with an interest in other totally non-Apple gear... whether it be my early x86 systems, Eudi's PET's or anything else, so a single blanket forum for casual discussion of all this seems appropriate. Obviously for more specific coverage there are forums such as VintageComputer so there is no real need to extend any further as we are primarily still a vintage Apple and Mac community. Then finally in this category, it seems appropriate to have a forum for other Apple devices that arent actually computers... namely the Newton, and possibly the iPod which is now believe it or not, 14 years old in its earliest form. I guess there is no reason this couldnt be a front for discussion of iPhones either as they get older and well... let's face it... the original iPhone is well and truely deprecated now!

Anyway, thats just my thoughts. smile


Stay hungry... Stay foolish.
G5 2.0DC, Yikes G4/500 Sonnet-Enhanced, B+W G3/450, 9600/200MP, 7600/200, iMacs DVSE Graphite and 600 Snow, 7220/200, WGS 7350/180, 6360/160, 5500/250 DE, Pismo, 2x Lombards, 6100/66DOS, 2x CC's, 3x Pluses, 512K, SE/30, SE Superdrive, 2x Classics, IIvx, IIci, IIsi, 3x LC520, 4x LC575, 5x P580, LC, LCIII, //gs LE, 2x ROM 02 //gs', IIe... and I'm outta characters!

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#44 2015-07-05 00:54:03

LCGuy
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From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-13
Posts: 844

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

I personally don't think we should consider having an Intel or an iPhone forum just yet. While the first Intel Macs are coming up to 10 years old, and are well and truly unsupported by Apple, I don't really consider them to be "classic". I have an iMac Core Duo (I've shoved a C2D in it, but thats beside the point), and to me its like a Holden Commodore VN from the late 80's/early 90's. Is it old? Yes. Is it old enough to be a classic? Certainly not, and if you try and say that its "vintage" or "a classic", classic car enthusiasts will laugh at you.

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#45 2015-07-05 01:31:27

IIfx
Member
From: VA, USA
Registered: 2014-09-07
Posts: 92

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

I agree with most of the viewpoints here - keep it simple. Lump all the beige desktops together, lump the laptops together, etc. Follow the OldWorld/NewWorld break.

Perhaps have an Intel subsection. They are 10 years old. That was around the time that 68k discussion took off, no? Anything pre-Lion.

I do believe an "other" category for other systems would be good. Do not lump clones into other, instead put them in with their Mac's or make a subforum of an OldWorld group.

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#46 2015-07-05 01:42:56

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,435

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

ClassicHasClass wrote:
bbraun wrote:

For the overwhelming number of CHRP posts we've got that need homes?

+1

HEH! tongue Just a side-note to the clones, where there was some CHRP footprint, Apple wussed out big time in that particular round of innovation.

The Quadra 630 is NOT a snot nosed LC like its bastard get.

However, the "Quadra" 605 is a snot nosed, whining little 68LC040 afflicted LC beyotch. roll Cute as a button though! cool



edit: the Clone Zone is absolutely necessary, they stand alone as a beacon of innovation while Apple was spinning its wheels to little or no effect. Diluting them into the beige glop of Apple product from that era would be a sin.

Last edited by jt (2015-07-05 01:46:21)

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#47 2015-07-05 02:57:54

Scott Baret
Member
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 182

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

The Quadra 605 does, however, distance itself from its LC counterpart (despite identical specs), and the difference can be summed up in one word.

FEETS!!!

wink

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#48 2015-07-05 04:48:09

LCGuy
Administrator
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-13
Posts: 844

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

In all fairness the LC475 does have its big monofoot up front, and two little feets at the back, but its still got nothing on the 605's feets smile

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#49 2015-07-05 05:08:19

jt
Member
From: Bermuda Triangle, NC USA
Registered: 2014-05-21
Posts: 1,435

Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

Hate to say it, but the 475's MonoFeet does set the Portrait at a much jauntier angle. hmm

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#50 2015-07-05 05:09:03

iMic
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From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 2014-05-12
Posts: 916
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Re: Proposed Forum Restructuring (Updated!)

Because there seems to be differing viewpoints for what our new forums should look like, I'm inclined to move forward with the solution that differs the least from our current setup while still addressing the issues. This would include removing the dedicated forum for Performa models and moving the LC discussions into another forum. Some forum descriptions will be expanded and clarified. A new forum will be established for other manufacturers models.

With recent discussions there is some uncertainty about Early Intel.

Newton & Handhelds was a discussion area we already had in the past, but almost nobody used it and the one time it was used, it was for a non-Newton related thread.


So far these changes require the removal of one forum and the addition of one or two others. The number of forums on the index shouldn't change that much.


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Faculty of Macintosh Restorations & Modifications - "It works, let's fix it!"

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